UP High School Radio Station Loses Frequency To Bigger Station

[Graham Wellington]

NPR requires local staff for their affiliate stations. KLOVE has hundreds of signals with nothing but a leased tower, so not a great comparison.

So you mean every WCMU stick has local staff creating programming? Every Minnesota Public Radio repeater is locally programmed? Interesting...

[Ben Zonia]

I couldn't figure out why they didn't check the Waiver Request box Yes on the checklist. They mention it in the technical exhibit. If it was an oversight, they should amend it before it holds it up. It's a minor point, but I had an application returned for a similar checklist problem with an ambiguous question years back.

I don't know if CKPR-FM 91.5 is heard much in the UP. CKPR AM 580 was heard quite well in that area. The channel is clearly usable for a Class D under the agreement and FCC rules. CKPR-FM is not a full Class C 600 meter HAAT facility or allotment. All these combined make it so 91.5 can't be bumped.

CKPR moved from 580 to 91.5 in 2007. The vacant allotment remains in the database, making it necessary for WTCM 580 to protect it Day and Night as if it was still operating on 580. The augmented 50000 watt Daytime IDF of WTCM toward the vacant 580 allotment is about the equivalent of 2000 watts using the specified international agreement efficiency.

[TC Talks]

NPR requires local staff for their affiliate stations. KLOVE has hundreds of signals with nothing but a leased tower, so not a great comparison.

So you mean every WCMU stick has local staff creating programming? Every Minnesota Public Radio repeater is locally programmed? Interesting...

They have on staff journalists around their service area, yes. It's also a CPB grant issue too I believe. In CMU's case, I think they have a work share with The Record Eagle in Traverse City.

[Ben Zonia]

They don't have an L-R Map for CKPR, but WGGL 91.1 should be a similar path with a similar facility. Looks like a few spots around Thunder Bay get some signal. A lot of signal is blocked by Isle Royale.

https://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php ... beb7&map=Y

[cckadlec]

They don't have an L-R Map for CKPR, but WGGL 91.1 should be a similar path with a similar facility. Looks like a few spots around Thunder Bay get some signal. A lot of signal is blocked by Isle Royale.

https://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php ... beb7&map=Y

91.5 is very widely heard across the western UP, all the way inland to M-28 and beyond. Similar with 94.3 that can be listened to easily with RDS along M-28 and almost anywhere else. Of course, there are some terrain and seasonal restraints to the Thunder Bay stations in the UP. Don't expect them in January or anything. And 91.1 is pretty much a local in Thunder Bay. Solid in RDS most of the time. And Isle Royale doesn't impact the stations any whatsoever due to its elevation and the fact that stations over Lake Superior - unlike on the other lakes - propagate via elevated ducts, not surface ducts so much.

You can see some of the coverage at my mobile sites, though there aren't a ton of recordings up that way due to a lack of time that summer, but there are some nonetheless, especially from the Ouimet Canyon site where I had more time, though not all recorded.

Copper Harbor
Thunder Bay
Kama Bay Lookout
Lake of the Clouds
L'Anse
Ouimet Canyon
Palisade Head
Susie Islands

[Ben Zonia]

They don't have an L-R Map for CKPR, but WGGL 91.1 should be a similar path with a similar facility. Looks like a few spots around Thunder Bay get some signal. A lot of signal is blocked by Isle Royale.

https://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php ... beb7&map=Y

91.5 is very widely heard across the western UP, all the way inland to M-28 and beyond. Similar with 94.3 that can be listened to easily with RDS along M-28 and almost anywhere else. Of course, there are some terrain and seasonal restraints to the Thunder Bay stations in the UP. Don't expect them in January or anything. And 91.1 is pretty much a local in Thunder Bay. Solid in RDS most of the time. And Isle Royale doesn't impact the stations any whatsoever due to its elevation and the fact that stations over Lake Superior - unlike on the other lakes - propagate via elevated ducts, not surface ducts so much.

You can see some of the coverage at my mobile sites, though there aren't a ton of recordings up that way due to a lack of time that summer, but there are some nonetheless, especially from the Ouimet Canyon site where I had more time, though not all recorded.

Copper Harbor
Thunder Bay
Kama Bay Lookout
Lake of the Clouds
L'Anse
Ouimet Canyon
Palisade Head
Susie Islands

How DOES that differ from over Lake Michigan, Lake Huron, and Lake Erie? There are frequent strong tropo events over all of those. More recent measurements show that the conductivity over these lakes is much greater than M-3 due to ionic effluent, by three times or more. Lake Superior is the closest to M-3 at 7 mS/m measured. Pure water is close to zero. I would think that that might affect surface ducts due to reflections of a great range of frequencies, leading to double hops, etc. In the old days, WJML-FM 98.9 would come in regularly in Southeast Michigan, before band congestion, 80-90 stations, and IBOC sidebands, over a land path. Many others like WMBI-FM 90.1 and WIXX 101.1 were frequently heard, partly over water, to Southeast Michigan. CKNX-FM 101.7 and TV Channel 8 were also frequent over Lake Huron.

[cckadlec]

How DOES that differ from over Lake Michigan, Lake Huron, and Lake Erie? There are frequent strong tropo events over all of those. More recent measurements show that the conductivity over these lakes is much greater than M-3 due to ionic effluent, by three times or more. Lake Superior is the closest to M-3 at 7 mS/m measured. Pure water is close to zero. I would think that that might affect surface ducts due to reflections of a great range of frequencies, leading to double hops, etc. In the old days, WJML-FM 98.9 would come in regularly in Southeast Michigan, before band congestion, 80-90 stations, and IBOC sidebands, over a land path. Many others like WMBI-FM 90.1 and WIXX 101.1 were frequently heard, partly over water, to Southeast Michigan. CKNX-FM 101.7 and TV Channel 8 were also frequent over Lake Huron.

Well, in 22 years of studying marine inversions, I can say Lake Superior is different for a few reasons. One is the fact that the land elevation is higher along many of the shorelines, so it's easier to get in on the elevated ducts, whereas the other lakes are primarily low elevation and flat along their shorelines, with some exceptions such as Scarborough Bluffs, Sleeping Bear Dunes, and other dune systems on the east shore of Lake Michigan and places like Awenda on the east shore of Huron.

I think the main difference is the sizes of the lakes. For instance, Lake Michigan is loaded with urban areas with lots of stations and the distance - east to west anyway - isn't that great. The ducts are also elevated on Lake Michigan, but there are also ducts in the lower levels, though many get easily wiped out by lines of sand dunes along the shore causing a terrain shadow within about 5 miles of the shore (especially in places like Muskegon). Elevated ducts bring strong signals inland whereas areas in lower elevations along the beaches have weak signals or totally absent signals. These elevated ones usually come in strong around 15 miles inland or 200 feet above the water level. The same goes with Lake Huron, though that one is actually more similar to Superior than the rest. In addition, water temperature plays a big role in the ducting and (seemingly, as I lack meteorological evidence to back up the observations) the elevation of those ducts.

With Lake Superior, elevated ducts are most common, but unlike the other lakes, if you're listening right along the shoreline at water level, everything turns to TrS instead, which is the same conditions you'd hear in the middle of the lake or on a boat out on the water on any lake (signals are heard strong only on shorelines usually, not on open water). Lots of fluttery in/out signals vs. the stable signals you'd hear on a shoreline. So if you're in downtown Grand Marais (Michigan, that is), signals are generally downright crappy. You'll hear some stuff, but it's always fluttery and a lot of the signals are absent. But drive down the road to the dunes where you're 300 feet up and you'll hear an immense number of stations at impressive signal quality. And that repeats on every single part of the Superior shoreline in Michigan, Ontario, and Minnesota. On the contrary, that doesn't happen on the other lakes, where you can be at water level and get in on H*** openings without *needing* to be elevated like on Superior.

(Excuse the roundabout way in explaining that as I have not written my article on it that puts it in a more direct way).

But keep in mind that conductivity has absolutely nothing to do with FM propagation, but is used for AM reception. FM refracts off surfaces and into space, so the measurement for ducting over lakes is about how high the duct is, how much water surface it covers, what obstructions lie in its path (high-elevation islands, fog banks, holes in the ceiling of the duct that allow signals to escape, etc.). It doesn't absorb into the ground. There are essentially no "double-hops" outside of Es, as FM signal refraction over water is endless hops until either a hole is found in the ceiling of the duct or a shoreline is reached where the duct is interrupted by land and the termination of the lake breeze and arrival at the lake breeze front, thus finally forcing the signal upward and away from the ground.

And yes, CKNX is still a H*** signal over Lake Huron, while 98.9 (KLT as I always knew it before Air1) really gets out -> a good map of their shoreline reception.

I obviously could go on I think any dinky signal in Ontonagon would know to pay very close attention to any cross-lake frequency they choose to be on, because at that low power, they'd be crushed by anything bigger. I'm sure a lot of stations with translators close to the water down here in southern Michigan could admit to that as some of them have a coverage of almost zero in the summer after choosing a frequency they thought would be open along the water.

I see we're still banning the word h u g e in every post after all these years. But my statement was simply that Lake Superior marine tropo ducting was based primarily on elevated ducts while the other four lakes behave differently and have both elevated and surface ducts.

[Ben Zonia]

Some thoughts.

The reason I mentioned conductivity, which affects the AMs in a huqe way across the Great Lakes, even Lake Superior, is that salt water reflection is often cited for multiple hops over a great range of frequency signals over a large body of water. And the real conductivity is intermediate between pure water and salt water in the other Great Lakes.

Not sure what happens with WTIQ AM across Lake Michigan, there's ground wave, and it fades. In Winter, it's Daytime skywave, but the fading is still there somewhat in the Summer.

The higher elevation regions not far from the water affect signals for different reasons. You have the LOS affect to the top of the elevation, then the signal falls off beyond the higher elevation. But the conductivity effect of the high elevation regions is caused by the gravelly, sandy, rocky soil types. And drier because the water flows downhill and away from it.

If you notice, the Longley Rice Maps do show the effects of elevation inland from the shore. The WGGL L-R shows it inland near Thunder Bay. If there was one easily available for CKPR, it would show the same thing in Michigan.

WVBI-LP 100.1 is regularly heard on a "Delco" type car radio at Meijers in Petoskey, where the elevation is high close to Lake Michigan. Falls off as the elevation decreases further in.

One thing that amazes me is that most engineers tend to believe M-3 is accurate at the local level. The late Glen Clark said Chicago was about the only area where it was accurate.

[zoomer69]

It appears Ontonagon High School applied for a modification to 91.5 FM at the end of December, and a boost to 99 watts (they were previously at 9 watts, per the FCC filing). They submitted a technical exhibit and an e-mail of no objection from Minnesota Public Radio regarding WGGL.

WOAS is currently off-air awaiting the hardware upgrades; the Gawd Squad has fired up their conflicting transmitter.