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Switching to/from another station's signal for network shows
- mtburb
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:28 pm
- Location: Wyandotte, 17 miles from Southfield, 38 miles from Oregon
Switching to/from another station's signal for network shows
This was actually common in the 60's among affiliates who couldn't afford direct network feeds or microwave connections. In that case, engineers would switch to/and from the signal of a nearby affiliate of the same network whenever they would show network programming. I know there were at least three stations that did this practice...
During the 60's, WNEM would often use the signal of WWJ (WDIV) to show NBC programming, doing so using a tower at I-75 exit 98 near Holly (which today is the halfway point between the edges of the Detroit and Flint urbanized areas when one travels along that part of I-75). By the 1970's, though, WNEM finally was able to purchase a microwave link and soon only had to use WWJ's signal for Tigers games.
Also, WPBN/WTOM would themselves use the signals of WNEM (and WOOD) whenever they were airing NBC. It was quite interesting, especially during the summer, when thunderstorms rolled through WNEM/WOOD's respective markets and they therefore put up bugs that would consequently be shown on WPBN/WTOM as well even if the skies over northern Michigan were clear. These, unfortunately, also resulted in tropo propagation conditions (all of this happened to occur during the time of year when northern Michigan's population doubles as residents from the southern half of the state travel up to their cottages, confusing those people into thinking that was a year-round case).
But the most notable case, though, occurred with WNYP (now WNYB) channel 26 in Buffalo. When that station first signed on in 1966 (owned by the late Bud Paxson of HSN and Ion fame), it affiliated with, of all networks, the Canadian CTV network. They couldn't afford a direct feed, so the signal of CFTO Toronto was used for CTV programming. All sorts of crazy stuff happened on WNYP during it's CTV affiliation: airing the same episode of The Aquanauts several times every day at the same time for two weeks, failing to plaster CFTO IDs with WNYP's, a local radio station being picked up instead and even other stations on channel 9 (such as WWTV Cadillac) being shown instead during tropo conditions. Ultimately, WNYP landed itself in trouble as CTV aired a number of American network shows back then (it still does to an extent today) and ultimately relied on a prototype of HSN before shutting down in 1969.
Does anyone here know of any other similar situations like these anywhere in North America?
During the 60's, WNEM would often use the signal of WWJ (WDIV) to show NBC programming, doing so using a tower at I-75 exit 98 near Holly (which today is the halfway point between the edges of the Detroit and Flint urbanized areas when one travels along that part of I-75). By the 1970's, though, WNEM finally was able to purchase a microwave link and soon only had to use WWJ's signal for Tigers games.
Also, WPBN/WTOM would themselves use the signals of WNEM (and WOOD) whenever they were airing NBC. It was quite interesting, especially during the summer, when thunderstorms rolled through WNEM/WOOD's respective markets and they therefore put up bugs that would consequently be shown on WPBN/WTOM as well even if the skies over northern Michigan were clear. These, unfortunately, also resulted in tropo propagation conditions (all of this happened to occur during the time of year when northern Michigan's population doubles as residents from the southern half of the state travel up to their cottages, confusing those people into thinking that was a year-round case).
But the most notable case, though, occurred with WNYP (now WNYB) channel 26 in Buffalo. When that station first signed on in 1966 (owned by the late Bud Paxson of HSN and Ion fame), it affiliated with, of all networks, the Canadian CTV network. They couldn't afford a direct feed, so the signal of CFTO Toronto was used for CTV programming. All sorts of crazy stuff happened on WNYP during it's CTV affiliation: airing the same episode of The Aquanauts several times every day at the same time for two weeks, failing to plaster CFTO IDs with WNYP's, a local radio station being picked up instead and even other stations on channel 9 (such as WWTV Cadillac) being shown instead during tropo conditions. Ultimately, WNYP landed itself in trouble as CTV aired a number of American network shows back then (it still does to an extent today) and ultimately relied on a prototype of HSN before shutting down in 1969.
Does anyone here know of any other similar situations like these anywhere in North America?
My furthest DTV tropo: KDKA Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at 202 miles for three days in January 2017 and a night in September 2017 with only an Antennas Direct C2V!
Current setup: Antennas Direct C2Max (2018-present)
Current setup: Antennas Direct C2Max (2018-present)
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
American Microwave and Communications Corp had a 6 gig backbone originating on the Penobscot Building in Detroit, going up to (coincidental to your story) their tower just off I75 and Holly Road, then to a facility on Hurley Hospital in Flint, and on up through the state. The route went up through Grayling, then Elmira and, into Mackinaw City, into the UP, and up over and into Houghton and Ironwood....I'm fuzzy on the route in the middle. They had a presence in Muskegon, Fremont, and other areas out that way; I don't know if that was a spur off the backbone, or a stand-alone system. They had an office in Lansing.
I had the opportunity way back in the 80s to look at their facilities on the top floor of the Penob; it was a first class setup, but I don't remember how they got the programming there to begin the backbone. There are some expired/cancelled licenses still in the database that show a 22 gig path from WDIV; that might have been how they got into the Penob.
They carried TV programming for stations along the way, and other common carrier customer stuff. They ended up folding their tent in the late 90s; they first sold out to a company in Colorado as I recall. Towers are still there and in use as rental sites.
Ku satellite time simply got too cheap, and there was, by then, a lot of private fiber like Williams and Vyvx that could haul better video cheaper.
I had the opportunity way back in the 80s to look at their facilities on the top floor of the Penob; it was a first class setup, but I don't remember how they got the programming there to begin the backbone. There are some expired/cancelled licenses still in the database that show a 22 gig path from WDIV; that might have been how they got into the Penob.
They carried TV programming for stations along the way, and other common carrier customer stuff. They ended up folding their tent in the late 90s; they first sold out to a company in Colorado as I recall. Towers are still there and in use as rental sites.
Ku satellite time simply got too cheap, and there was, by then, a lot of private fiber like Williams and Vyvx that could haul better video cheaper.
The box that many broadcasters won’t look outside of was made in 1969 and hasn’t changed significantly since.
- Calvert DeForest
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:14 pm
- Location: The corner of US-16 and M-78
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
WJRT utilized American Microwave to distribute their feed to areas of the northeast LP where there was no ABC affiliate available. I remember them being on the Mackinaw City cable lineup as late as 1977-78. WKAR-TV also used them to reach cable systems as far north as Alpena in the days before CMU expanded and built WCML-TV.
The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
Shortwave is the ORIGINAL satellite radio.
- Some Guy from Toledo
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:12 pm
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Bud Paxon certainly was very ballsy on getting that CTV affiliation at all.mtburb wrote:But the most notable case, though, occurred with WNYP (now WNYB) channel 26 in Buffalo. When that station first signed on in 1966 (owned by the late Bud Paxson of HSN and Ion fame), it affiliated with, of all networks, the Canadian CTV network. They couldn't afford a direct feed, so the signal of CFTO Toronto was used for CTV programming. All sorts of crazy stuff happened on WNYP during it's CTV affiliation: airing the same episode of The Aquanauts several times every day at the same time for two weeks, failing to plaster CFTO IDs with WNYP's, a local radio station being picked up instead and even other stations on channel 9 (such as WWTV Cadillac) being shown instead during tropo conditions. Ultimately, WNYP landed itself in trouble as CTV aired a number of American network shows back then (it still does to an extent today) and ultimately relied on a prototype of HSN before shutting down in 1969.
That was an achievement.Calvert DeForest wrote:The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
- mtburb
- Posts: 295
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:28 pm
- Location: Wyandotte, 17 miles from Southfield, 38 miles from Oregon
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
I just realized another example of this. When WUHQ (now WOTV) Grand Rapids first signed on in 1971, it couldn't afford a direct feed from ABC, so whenever they would show ABC programming, engineers had to switch to and from WZZM's signal, though this proved to be less than satisfactory as WZZM often preempted ABC programming. Whenever WUHQ had advance notice, they were able to broadcast film copies of the preempted shows, but during instances where there was no advance notice, WUHQ ended up instead simulcasting WSJV South Bend, usually with results less satisfactory than simulcasting WZZM. However, when atmospheric conditions prevented the WSJV simulcast, WUHQ was forced to broadcast alternate non-network programming instead.
My furthest DTV tropo: KDKA Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at 202 miles for three days in January 2017 and a night in September 2017 with only an Antennas Direct C2V!
Current setup: Antennas Direct C2Max (2018-present)
Current setup: Antennas Direct C2Max (2018-present)
- Some Guy from Toledo
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:12 pm
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Well at least it's not a test pattern and some music, though I suppose that would be uncalled for!mtburb wrote:I just realized another example of this. When WUHQ (now WOTV) Grand Rapids first signed on in 1971, it couldn't afford a direct feed from ABC, so whenever they would show ABC programming, engineers had to switch to and from WZZM's signal, though this proved to be less than satisfactory as WZZM often preempted ABC programming. Whenever WUHQ had advance notice, they were able to broadcast film copies of the preempted shows, but during instances where there was no advance notice, WUHQ ended up instead simulcasting WSJV South Bend, usually with results less satisfactory than simulcasting WZZM. However, when atmospheric conditions prevented the WSJV simulcast, WUHQ was forced to broadcast alternate non-network programming instead.
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
I am probably rather fuzzy on recollection of details on this, but I think in the mid-late 60s there was a loose regional affiliation of what were then called Educational TV stations.
IIRC it was called the "M5-O2 Network." Five stations in Michigan with WTVS as the "hub," with WKAR and WCMU and 2 others north and west, and two in Ohio, probably Toledo and Bowling Green. I believe the stations relayed an off-air pickup of the one most nearby, perhaps also aided by telco transport. Not used too frequently but for special programming or events of regional interest.
Please fill in the gaps if you remember any of this.
IIRC it was called the "M5-O2 Network." Five stations in Michigan with WTVS as the "hub," with WKAR and WCMU and 2 others north and west, and two in Ohio, probably Toledo and Bowling Green. I believe the stations relayed an off-air pickup of the one most nearby, perhaps also aided by telco transport. Not used too frequently but for special programming or events of regional interest.
Please fill in the gaps if you remember any of this.
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Imagine for a moment the 'chicken / egg' decision and eventual leap of faith someone had to take with the VERY expensive construction of this backbone.......you would have to sell the originating stations and all the customers on the concept, layout and stick to schedules and payments that worked for everyone, lock them in tight, all the while finding sites, getting licenses, building sites, and financing all the equipment before the first video flowed.Calvert DeForest wrote:WJRT utilized American Microwave to distribute their feed to areas of the northeast LP where there was no ABC affiliate available. I remember them being on the Mackinaw City cable lineup as late as 1977-78. WKAR-TV also used them to reach cable systems as far north as Alpena in the days before CMU expanded and built WCML-TV.
The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
Imagine the maintenance staff, spares, expenses, electrical bills, property taxes, fencing, key control, and the MANY miles of driving for a relatively small operation. I know from personal experience that some of these sites were really off in the puckerbrush.
I strongly admire that sort of foresight and overall 'chutzpah' in putting a system together and making it work, especially at that point in time before communications financing and VC capital. I'll bet they got push back from the MPSC, AT&T, W/U, and MCI. Talk about your 'art of the deal'.
I hope they made their money back.
The box that many broadcasters won’t look outside of was made in 1969 and hasn’t changed significantly since.
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Didn't know that they even used 22 gig, back then. What a great set of posts!
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- Posts: 596
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:49 pm
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Did WGTU use WZZM's feed for a time? Or did they pull from WJRT?
- audiophile
- Posts: 8610
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:21 pm
- Location: Between 88 and 108 MHz.
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
The American Microwave stuff I saw was all 10 GHz.jry wrote:Didn't know that they even used 22 gig, back then. What a great set of posts!
Sure they didn't just put a TV set in one tower and camera in the other? That light would be close to 22 GHz anyway...
Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
WJRT was seen in Alpena until recently (when WBKB added ABC to their DT3).Calvert DeForest wrote:WJRT utilized American Microwave to distribute their feed to areas of the northeast LP where there was no ABC affiliate available. I remember them being on the Mackinaw City cable lineup as late as 1977-78. WKAR-TV also used them to reach cable systems as far north as Alpena in the days before CMU expanded and built WCML-TV.
The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
Also, before WCMU expanded, some systems along the Lake Michigan shoreline carried WGVU and/or WPNE. The Ludington Daily News is on Google News Archive (with TV guides included) and it looks like 'KBD was never carried there or in Manistee.
Speaking of WKBD, they also got carriage in parts of Wisconsin and Ohio. Later, after WKBD went UPN, then-WGKI was carried as far west as Hurley, Wisconsin (Duluth didn't have a FOX affiliate at the time).
- Calvert DeForest
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:14 pm
- Location: The corner of US-16 and M-78
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
WFSL-TV (now WSYM) secured an agreement with ABC in the early-mid 80's to air network shows that weren't picked up by WJRT. There was an antenna mounted on the high-rise across the street and a demod tuned to WXYZ, which was used to pick up program feeds. The quality of the off-air feed from WXYZ wasn't the greatest at times, but it passed for air. When I started there in the summer of '85, we only picked up one feed. It was whatever program ABC had sent down at noon, which WJRT pre-empted with local news. I remember reruns of the sitcom "Angie", which was later changed to some game show. The ABC feeds were dropped by the end of that year in favor of syndicated fare.
I remember we had a generic circle-ABC slide in our film chain that we hot-punched to cover the net promos. The timing rundowns we got from the network were usually pretty accurate, although they did throw us the occasional curve-ball.
I remember we had a generic circle-ABC slide in our film chain that we hot-punched to cover the net promos. The timing rundowns we got from the network were usually pretty accurate, although they did throw us the occasional curve-ball.
Shortwave is the ORIGINAL satellite radio.
- rugratsonline
- Posts: 490
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:20 pm
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Taking a glance at the archives, it's amazing that they never carried WKBD -- or any of Milwaukee's indies (such as WVTV or WCGV).ftballfan wrote:The Ludington Daily News is on Google News Archive (with TV guides included) and it looks like 'KBD was never carried there or in Manistee.Calvert DeForest wrote: The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
Duluth did not get its own Fox station until 1999, when KQDS became an affiliate. Prior to then, I imagine that Duluth got Fox via satellite from the national FoxNet network, which was available in communities with no local affiliate.ftballfan wrote: Speaking of WKBD, they also got carriage in parts of Wisconsin and Ohio. Later, after WKBD went UPN, then-WGKI was carried as far west as Hurley, Wisconsin (Duluth didn't have a FOX affiliate at the time).
The switch from WKBD to WGKI on the microwave feed was mainly to keep Fox available in the UP -- especially as 1994 was the first year that Fox carried NFC football. Though of course, WGKI also replaced WKBD in other parts of Michigan where there was a local Fox affiliate -- it was on Bresnan's Bay City system for a year or so after the switch, but was blacked out most of the time, due to syndex and WSMH's exclusivity of Fox programming. They did eventually find a way to pipe in WKBD, which took back its cable slot (only to be replaced by WBSF after that station opened).
- Some Guy from Toledo
- Posts: 111
- Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:12 pm
Re: Switching to/from another station's signal for network s
Unusual history there.rugratsonline wrote:Taking a glance at the archives, it's amazing that they never carried WKBD -- or any of Milwaukee's indies (such as WVTV or WCGV).ftballfan wrote:The Ludington Daily News is on Google News Archive (with TV guides included) and it looks like 'KBD was never carried there or in Manistee.Calvert DeForest wrote: The biggest benefactor of microwave hops in the 70's was undoubtedly WKBD. They were on practically every cable system in the state, and gained the rep as Michigan's "superstation".
Duluth did not get its own Fox station until 1999, when KQDS became an affiliate. Prior to then, I imagine that Duluth got Fox via satellite from the national FoxNet network, which was available in communities with no local affiliate.ftballfan wrote: Speaking of WKBD, they also got carriage in parts of Wisconsin and Ohio. Later, after WKBD went UPN, then-WGKI was carried as far west as Hurley, Wisconsin (Duluth didn't have a FOX affiliate at the time).
The switch from WKBD to WGKI on the microwave feed was mainly to keep Fox available in the UP -- especially as 1994 was the first year that Fox carried NFC football. Though of course, WGKI also replaced WKBD in other parts of Michigan where there was a local Fox affiliate -- it was on Bresnan's Bay City system for a year or so after the switch, but was blacked out most of the time, due to syndex and WSMH's exclusivity of Fox programming. They did eventually find a way to pipe in WKBD, which took back its cable slot (only to be replaced by WBSF after that station opened).