Trump Indicted For 2020 Post-Election Shenanigans

[bmw]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

[Turkeytop]

I've been following the story in the news and there's one thing that puzzles me. That's the argument that Trump's actions were justified if he truly believed that he won the election and it had been stolen from him..

If I sincerely but mistakenly believe that my bank cheated me out of some money, does that give me license to go and rob the bank?

[bmw]

I've been following the story in the news and there's one thing that puzzles me. That's the argument that Trump's actions were justified if he truly believed that he won the election and it had been stolen from him..

If I sincerely but mistakenly believe that my bank cheated me out of some money, does that give me license to go and rob the bank?

It is because what he was charged with was (in 3 of the 4 counts anyways) conspiracy, and conspiracy requires intent to commit an actual crime.

Specifically:

Count 1 - 18 USC 371 - Conspiracy to Defraud the United States
"If two or more persons conspire...to defraud the United States...in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

Count 2 - 18 USC 1512(k) - Conspiracy to Obstruct an Official Proceeding
"Whoever conspires to commit any offense under this section shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense the commission of which was the object of the conspiracy."

Count 3 - 18 USC 1512(c)(2) - Obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding
"Whoever corruptly...obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both."

Count 4 - 18 USC 241 - Conspiracy Against rights
"If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same...They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both"

=================================

Counts 2 and 3 are part of the same allegation. So there's really 3 counts.

In addition to intent being an element of conspiracy, intent is also an element of underlying "object" of each allegation of conspiracy, so Trump's beliefs matter. Count 1 is an allegation of fraud, and "Intent to defraud" means "to act knowingly and with a specific intent to deceive." Count 2/3 requires that one act "corruptly," and just like with fraud, corruption at its core means to act "with a bad or evil purpose." Count 4 requires that Trump worked with somebody else to intimidate or threaten someone into doing his dirty work. But again, his work has to be dirty, first.

Put another way - if Trump believed that everything he was doing was not for the purpose of harming others or taking away something that was rightfully somebody else's, then there's no criminal intent, and thus, no conspiracy or corruption.

Now you brought up the issue of robbing a bank. That is a direct action. Trump, however, as best I understand the indictment, hasn't actually been charged with anything beyond what would be considered "speech."

[Honeyman]

Loved the sign outside the courtroom that said:

TRUMP
20-24
Years in prison

[TC Talks]

Quote of the day

It was the third time in four months he stood before a judge on criminal charges. But it was the most momentous, the beginning of what prosecutors say should be a reckoning for his multipronged efforts to undermine one of the core tenets of democracy.

[teetoppz28]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

Yeah, because there’s absolutely NO evidence of any wrong doing, right??

Let me guess: it’s a political persecution? The Grand Jury is just out to get the obese orange man?

[Mega Hertz]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

Yeah, because there’s absolutely NO evidence of any wrong doing, right??

Let me guess: it’s a political persecution? The Grand Jury is just out to get the obese orange man?

Antifa, the radical left democrats, BLM, the cast of the View, Colin Kaepernick, socialists, Marxists and Rosie O Donnell all took turns dressing up as Donald Trump and did all this.

I'm kind of ambivalent about it, anyway. The crux of his popularity is that they're railing against those pesky ELITES, yet had any of us done half of what he did, we would have a permanent place in prison. But, like an elite, he'll skate. And they say irony is dead.

[bmw]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

Yeah, because there’s absolutely NO evidence of any wrong doing, right??

Let me guess: it’s a political persecution? The Grand Jury is just out to get the obese orange man?

For so loudly proclaiming how intellectually superior you are, you sure come across here as a dumb ass.

What I'm saying is that you can't in one breath bring up the issue of hardcore Trump supporters potentially being on the jury and not looking at the evidence objectively while also ignoring the equally problematic issue of hardcore Trump haters doing the same. Guilty or not guilty, doesn't matter. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind without any evidence being presented and without seeing Trump's defense, but you want anybody who might not agree with you to look at things "objectively."

[teetoppz28]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

Yeah, because there’s absolutely NO evidence of any wrong doing, right??

Let me guess: it’s a political persecution? The Grand Jury is just out to get the obese orange man?

Antifa, the radical left democrats, BLM, the cast of the View, Colin Kaepernick, socialists, Marxists and Rosie O Donnell all took turns dressing up as Donald Trump and did all this.

I'm kind of ambivalent about it, anyway. The crux of his popularity is that they're railing against those pesky ELITES, yet had any of us done half of what he did, we would have a permanent place in prison. But, like an elite, he'll skate. And they say irony is dead.

Exactly. I’ve not heard a single person actually defend tRump… it’s always just “tHe LeFt Is WeApOnIzInG tHe DoJ!!”

I’m still waiting for an actual defense, rather than attack those who are carrying out their jobs and prosecuting law-breaking individuals.

[teetoppz28]

And all it takes is one tRumpanzee juror that slobs tRump's tiny little knob to refuse to actually look at the evidence objectively and always vote "not guilty" no matter what...

Or people like you on the jury who have decided "GUILTY" no matter what without objectively looking at the evidence.

Yeah, because there’s absolutely NO evidence of any wrong doing, right??

Let me guess: it’s a political persecution? The Grand Jury is just out to get the obese orange man?

For so loudly proclaiming how intellectually superior you are, you sure come across here as a dumb ass.

What I'm saying is that you can't in one breath bring up the issue of hardcore Trump supporters potentially being on the jury and not looking at the evidence objectively while also ignoring the equally problematic issue of hardcore Trump haters doing the same. Guilty or not guilty, doesn't matter. You've already tried and convicted him in your mind without any evidence being presented and without seeing Trump's defense, but you want anybody who might not agree with you to look at things "objectively."

Wait, wait, wait… I’m the dumbass?? You still think mass and weight are the same thing!! Oh, and sex and gender.

[teetoppz28]

Let’s use bmw’s logic to acquit tRump:

“Bubba from the thumb uses weight and mass interchangeably, so it must be true. Therefore, when my MAGAt uncle-dad says tRump is innocent, he is not guilty!!”

[bmw]

How can you convict the man when his defense hasn't presented a damn thing yet? Do you have any grasp of how our legal system works? You're innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the state. And you get to defend yourself against the case the state presents.

And if you had actually read my responses to this thread, I've told you what his defense is likely to be - that this is a freedom of speech case - that all of his actions relevant to the charges against him fall within the classification of speech and that his speech is protected by the First Amendment as none of it rose to the level of malicious intent as required to prove conspiracy.

And after watching the trial (assuming it is public), I will give you my honest objective opinion on whether I think he's guilty or not.

[teetoppz28]

How can you convict the man when his defense hasn't presented a damn thing yet? Do you have any grasp of how our legal system works? You're innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the state. And you get to defend yourself against the case the state presents.

And if you had actually read my responses to this thread, I've told you what his defense is likely to be - that this is a freedom of speech case - that all of his actions relevant to the charges against him fall within the classification of speech and that his speech is protected by the First Amendment as none of it rose to the level of malicious intent as required to prove conspiracy.

And after watching the trial (assuming it is public), I will give you my honest objective opinion on whether I think he's guilty or not.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences of that speech.

The MAGAts heard “fight like hell” and their third grade educated brains took that to mean “raid the capital.” He said he loves the poorly educated, so he needs to be responsible for what he says to those poorly educated dolts.

[bmw]

Oh, so if I say something, and a group of idiots misinterprets what I say (or at hears it but out of context) and acts on that misinterpretation, I can be locked up for the rest of my life?

[teetoppz28]

Oh, so if I say something, and a group of idiots misinterprets what I say (or at hears it but out of context) and acts on that misinterpretation, I can be locked up for the rest of my life?

When you willingly acknowledge that group of idiots swallow your rhetoric hook, line, and sinker… yes.

Not to bring Hitler into this, but look at what his speeches did to rile up the Germans to hate the Jews, Gypsies, etc. How many of his idiotic followers died because of their willful ignorance and lack of common sense?