The Trump indictment

[bmw]

This deserves its own thread apart from the one where we were speculating about the pending indictment. The indictment has come. I haven't heard or read any punditry on it, so I don't know what others are saying (aside from a few comments in this forum). But I've read it. And it is my opinion that the indictment is not facially valid, and his lawyers should be able to put together a motion to dismiss in about 10 minutes based on the following:

There were 34 counts. They're all essentially the same. Every one begins as follows:

AND THE GRAND JURY AFORESAID, by this indictment, further accuses the defendant of the crime of FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE,in violation of Penal Law §175.10, committed as follows:

The defendant, in the County of New York and elsewhere, on or about June 19, 2017, with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof...

https://www.scribd.com/document/6361000 ... from_embed

Here's the penal code in question:

§ 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree.

A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.

An indictment in the state of New York must contain...

...A plain and concise factual statement in each count which, without allegations of an evidentiary nature, (a) asserts facts supporting every element of the offense charged and the defendant's or defendants' commission thereof with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant or defendants of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation...

https://casetext.com/statute/consolidat ... dictment-a

Now on to the facial validity of the indictment. It does not specify what the "another crime" is. Even if the prosecutor can prove that Trump falsified business records as alleged, that in and of itself only makes it a second degree offense (and hence a misdemeanor). To rise to the level of first degree falsification, an additional element is necessary: intent to commit another crime or conceal the commission thereof (both of which are alleged - commission and concealment). But without specifying what that "other" crime is, the indictment lacks the necessary "factual statement...which...asserts facts supporting every element...with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant...of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation." The key is EVERY element. The indictment does not even state what the alleged other crime is, let alone the facts supporting it.

This SHOULD be tossed out of court in a heartbeat (even though I doubt that will happen).

That's my 2 legal cents anyways.

[TC Talks]

The best part of this happened today. Everything else is just aggravating for him.

BTW he has already claimed to have raised $8 million. He wanted this all to happen.

[Mega Hertz]

Give me one thing. One thing that Trump does or is brought up on charges for and you would say "Yeah, he should be in trouble for that" or "No, that's wrong of him, he needs to pay". Not "whatabout", not "Pfffff, no big deal, it should be dismissed". Just one thing. If I "defraud" or "falsify" a bank or any other business, I'm sure I would spend a little time in the hoosegow.

And before anyone tries it, yes, I believe Bill Clinton should have been punished for lying to Congress.

[TC Talks]

Was she worth it?

Kind of fat, kind of ugly, probably full of critters.

[Lester The Nightfly]

Give me one thing. One thing that Trump does or is brought up on charges for and you would say "Yeah, he should be in trouble for that" or "No, that's wrong of him, he needs to pay". Not "whatabout", not "Pfffff, no big deal, it should be dismissed". Just one thing. If I "defraud" or "falsify" a bank or any other business, I'm sure I would spend a little time in the hoosegow.

And before anyone tries it, yes, I believe Bill Clinton should have been punished for lying to Congress.

Speaking of banks, that may turn out to be the best unintended consequence if even one of those charges stick. Are you going to want to be the bank executive that offers financing or loans to someone with a felony conviction of falsifying business records?

[Rate This]

This deserves its own thread apart from the one where we were speculating about the pending indictment. The indictment has come. I haven't heard or read any punditry on it, so I don't know what others are saying (aside from a few comments in this forum). But I've read it. And it is my opinion that the indictment is not facially valid, and his lawyers should be able to put together a motion to dismiss in about 10 minutes based on the following:

There were 34 counts. They're all essentially the same. Every one begins as follows:

AND THE GRAND JURY AFORESAID, by this indictment, further accuses the defendant of the crime of FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE,in violation of Penal Law §175.10, committed as follows:

The defendant, in the County of New York and elsewhere, on or about June 19, 2017, with intent to defraud and intent to commit another crime and aid and conceal the commission thereof...

https://www.scribd.com/document/6361000 ... from_embed

Here's the penal code in question:

§ 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree.

A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.

An indictment in the state of New York must contain...

...A plain and concise factual statement in each count which, without allegations of an evidentiary nature, (a) asserts facts supporting every element of the offense charged and the defendant's or defendants' commission thereof with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant or defendants of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation...

https://casetext.com/statute/consolidat ... dictment-a

Now on to the facial validity of the indictment. It does not specify what the "another crime" is. Even if the prosecutor can prove that Trump falsified business records as alleged, that in and of itself only makes it a second degree offense (and hence a misdemeanor). To rise to the level of first degree falsification, an additional element is necessary: intent to commit another crime or conceal the commission thereof (both of which are alleged - commission and concealment). But without specifying what that "other" crime is, the indictment lacks the necessary "factual statement...which...asserts facts supporting every element...with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant...of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation." The key is EVERY element. The indictment does not even state what the alleged other crime is, let alone the facts supporting it.

This SHOULD be tossed out of court in a heartbeat (even though I doubt that will happen).

That's my 2 legal cents anyways.

You don’t think they dotted those eyes and crossed those T’s? Are you kidding me?

[TC Talks]

BMW was a former D. A. Didn't you know?

[Honeyman]

As much as I enjoy watching anything bad befall such a horrible individual as Donald Trump, I do agree to some degree with what bmw says here and other threads.

What he did in Georgia, on January 6th, and with documents in Mar a Lago are infinitely more criminal and worthy of the country's disgust than this. He cheats on his wife and pays money to try and hide it, for numerous reasons. Despicable, but probably one of tens of thousands who has done so. Trying to subvert an election? Start an insurrection? Steal classified documents? There he is in a select few. I wish those cases were filed first. I do think the reasons this case was filed is in a predominantly way to fill a political agenda, and I fear it might cheapen the other real counts he deserves to be charged with.

But the group that supports him won't change their minds no matter what. He is gonna have his 30% that literally won't care if he spits in their face. And another 10% of the idiots that would vote for him because he has an R next to his name.

Still, the majority of this country is not THAT stupid to ever elect him again, at least I hope and pray.

[bmw]

You don’t think they dotted those eyes and crossed those T’s? Are you kidding me?

Did you read the indictment? Did you read the New York state statute on the requirements of an indictment? Here a link to the full text if you want to see it:

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2 ... 00/200-50/

You don't need to be a lawyer to interpret this as it is written in plain English:

An indictment must contain:
...
7. A plain and concise factual statement in each count which, without allegations of an evidentiary nature, (a) asserts facts supporting every element of the offense charged and the defendant's or defendants' commission thereof with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant or defendants of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation...

That isn't difficult to understand. An indictment must:
-assert facts
-supporting EVERY element of the crime
-must do the above 2 things clearly
-must be precise enough such that the Defendant understands which specific conduct is the subject of the accusation

When you read the NY Penal Code that Trump has been specifically accused of violating, one of the specific elements (and it is the one element that differentiates a 1st degree felony from a 2nd degree misdemeanor) is that in the process of falsifying business records, Trump must have done so with the intent to commit ANOTHER different crime. That in and of itself is an element.

So please tell me where in the indictment is stated clearly and precisely the facts that apprise Trump of the conduct that is the subject of the accusation that he intended to commit a second crime?

[Mega Hertz]

I see WHY he had such a movement in the beginning. I wholeheartedly understand what the attraction was. Hey, who isn't tired of "the swamp"? Who has had enough of bureaucracy? I absolutely see how and why someone like Donald Trump running was just so...alluring. So I don't look down on anyone for that. And frankly, I should fall dead center in that group. Straight, white, American male, 38 years old, works construction, lives in Livingston county...I should be Trump and the Republicans' bread and butter. But I just can't bring myself to do it. The hate speech, the dog whistles, the projection, the "It's everybody's fault but mine and the world is out to get me" nonsense. But, ya know...the whole thing about the fox guarding the henhouse and all that. I just don't have it in my heart

[Rate This]

You don’t think they dotted those eyes and crossed those T’s? Are you kidding me?

Did you read the indictment? Did you read the New York state statute on the requirements of an indictment? Here a link to the full text if you want to see it:

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2 ... 00/200-50/

You don't need to be a lawyer to interpret this as it is written in plain English:

An indictment must contain:
...
7. A plain and concise factual statement in each count which, without allegations of an evidentiary nature, (a) asserts facts supporting every element of the offense charged and the defendant's or defendants' commission thereof with sufficient precision to clearly apprise the defendant or defendants of the conduct which is the subject of the accusation...

That isn't difficult to understand. An indictment must:
-assert facts
-supporting EVERY element of the crime
-must do the above 2 things clearly
-must be precise enough such that the Defendant understands which specific conduct is the subject of the accusation

When you read the NY Penal Code that Trump has been specifically accused of violating, one of the specific elements (and it is the one element that differentiates a 1st degree felony from a 2nd degree misdemeanor) is that in the process of falsifying business records, Trump must have done so with the intent to commit ANOTHER different crime. That in and of itself is an element.

So please tell me where in the indictment is stated clearly and precisely the facts that apprise Trump of the conduct that is the subject of the accusation that he intended to commit a second crime?

The statement about the date and mentioning checks and all of that is satisfactory. That’s the apprisal to Trump.

[bmw]

-sigh-

It must assert facts supporting the accusation that he intended to commit another crime. The things you mention support the accusation that he committed a 2nd degree falsification of business records. But I see no facts in support of the intent to commit a different crime.

[Rate This]

-sigh-

It must assert facts supporting the accusation that he intended to commit another crime. The things you mention support the accusation that he committed a 2nd degree falsification of business records. But I see no facts in support of the intent to commit a different crime.

No it doesn’t have to assert facts like that at all. It even specifically says they are not to be of an evidentiary nature. It just has to be specific enough for TRUMP to know what they are referring to. Not you or I. So if a cop saw Trump do something and only he and Trump were aware of it and they mentioned a date, time and place that would be enough. He just needs to be aware of what event they are referring to. That’s not exactly a state secret now is it?

[Turkeytop]

I didn't realize we had so many lawyers on this board.

[Taco]

I was watching those idiots on TV supporting this guy regardless of any wrongdoings or tantrum behavior. His supporters think he some sort of God-like figure. But he is NOT. Nobody is above the law. You do the crime, you do the time.