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WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

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YpsiGuy
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WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:55 pm

Keep an eye on RF23 over the coming days. They have been granted license to bring their new DTV transmitter online.

275 kW from 1391 ft up is gonna be one heckuva blowtorch.



Toledo Radio Died
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by Toledo Radio Died » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:36 pm

Never understood why Toledo television stations broadcast with such low power? Is this an error by the FCC?
Toledo vs. Dayton, mind you these are both midsize cities.
Now Dayton area has much more terrain versus Toledo area which is mostly flat. However on the radio side it seems like Toledo stations travel better than the Dayton stations do, when driving up and down on I-75.

All Dayton station’s are on the UHF band.

WTOL 11 ERP 16.9 kW/ WHIO 7 ERP 854 kW (I understand that WTOL is on a VHF frequency , WTOL should’ve never given up UHF).

WTVG 13 ERP 16.7 kW/ WKEF 22 ERP 950 kW (WTVG is also on a VHF)

WNWO 24 ERP 275 kW/ WDTN 2 ERP 1,000 kW (Both are on UHF; Nice rise for WNWO but 275kW isn’t squat compared to 1,000 kW.)

WGTE 30 ERP 49.5 kW/ WPTO 16 ERP 250 kW

WUPW 36 ERP 65 kW/ WRGT 45 ERP 1,000 kW (WRGT Quite a considerable amount of power over WUPW)



YpsiGuy
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:29 am

Interestingly, I receive WTVG and WUPW decently from 42 miles away. WNWO should be an easy catch from the new transmitter.



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RingtailedFox
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by RingtailedFox » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:20 pm

Toledo Radio Died wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:36 pm
Never understood why Toledo television stations broadcast with such low power? Is this an error by the FCC?
Toledo vs. Dayton, mind you these are both midsize cities.
Now Dayton area has much more terrain versus Toledo area which is mostly flat. However on the radio side it seems like Toledo stations travel better than the Dayton stations do, when driving up and down on I-75.

All Dayton station’s are on the UHF band.

WTOL 11 ERP 16.9 kW/ WHIO 7 ERP 854 kW (I understand that WTOL is on a VHF frequency , WTOL should’ve never given up UHF).

WTVG 13 ERP 16.7 kW/ WKEF 22 ERP 950 kW (WTVG is also on a VHF)

WNWO 24 ERP 275 kW/ WDTN 2 ERP 1,000 kW (Both are on UHF; Nice rise for WNWO but 275kW isn’t squat compared to 1,000 kW.)

WGTE 30 ERP 49.5 kW/ WPTO 16 ERP 250 kW

WUPW 36 ERP 65 kW/ WRGT 45 ERP 1,000 kW (WRGT Quite a considerable amount of power over WUPW)

I think it's due to geography: They're hemmed in on all sides by other markets (Detroit/Windsor to the north, Cleveland to the East, Fort Wayne to the West, and Lima to the south).... plus Lake Erie can help extend signals' reception because lakes are flat and have no real terrain obstacles between the shores.

The reason the Toledo transmitters are all located on the northern edge of the market is due to history: IN the late 1940s, Detroit got its first TV stations, and people in Toledo started tuning in to them. A year or two later, Toledo got its first stations, but in order to keep from inconveniencing their viewers with having to change antenna directions, the broadcasters put up their towers in roughly a line-of-sight path with Detroit. Otherwise, the most logical place for towers to cover the whole market would have been somewhere between Findlay and Bowling Green (which may have even collapsed Lima into the Toledo market at some point in the future).

As for "low" power... 16.7 KW on the VHF band is plenty powerful for the reach they need. This isn't like Kansas or North Dakota where you have a couple hundred miles of flat, wide open spaces served by a 60 kW VHF station on a 2000-foot tower. Hell, I'm 45 miles NE of Toledo and I'm able to pick up 11 at all times, and 13 most of the time. I'll almost certainly get WNWO back if they increase power, too.


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YpsiGuy
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:40 am

My suspicion is that WNWO is going be the ATSC 3.0 “lighthouse” for the Toledo market, ringtailfox. Sinclair is all in on ATSC 3.0

It will be nice to have a strong signal from them in ATSC 1.0 the meantime, though.

As far as the Detroit market, from what WXYZ support told me, sounds like WMYD will be broadcasting ATSC 3.0 sometime next year.



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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by innate-in-you » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:16 pm

Second Ringtailed on the Toledo transmitters' placement. The FCC (or was it the Federal Radio Commission at the time) should have mandated sites south of Toledo. I think WSPD's transmitter should have been near the Maumee, south-southwest of downtown (more precisely, a path that would have Downtown casting an RF shadow only over Maumee Bay, not East Toledo).

If they had used that plan, all those stations' signals could have covered 20 miles further deep into Ohio.

As for WNWO's power increase - believe it or not, almost quadrupling ERP would only add about 5 miles (8km) to the major lobe coverage curve.

If it's UHF over the horizon, you generally will get a good signal only during tropospheric events (in which case the signal can be FAR stronger than a day without tropo).

VHF will usually have allow a longer path than UHF if the power is there.

I'm 50 miles from the Detroit tower farm (52 miles from WDIV 4/32, with about 200kW on my radial), which is almost always usable) and 65 miles from WADL 38/27, (seen exclusively by tropo).
Yet, with my CM3020 on the chimney, (at the FCC-specified 10m over the ground!), WJBK, with about 25kW ERP on my radial is generally easier to lock than the signal of WDIV at roughly 52 miles distance,
(only 3km more distance than WJBK), though, of course, WJBK's signal is more vulnerable to lightning.



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WOHO
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by WOHO » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:05 am

IIRC, the original 1948 WSPD-TV 13 transmitting antenna was a free-standing tower (like their AM towers) very near their current iHeart studio near the Farmer's Market. I don't know when they dismantled the Downtown Toledo CH13 tower and moved to Oregon- if it was when WTOL went on the air in 58/59, but it was before 1962 when WSPD AM & FM radio-only moved from 136 Huron Street to their current digs on Superior, and well before WDHO joined the gang in 1967 or so. IIRC, WDHO/WNWO has THE tallest tower of all the TV stations in the Toledo market and one of the tallest structures in the State of Ohio.



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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:05 pm

IIRC (please let me know, there is a chance I'm wrong) WNWO uses the tallest tower in Ohio. For awhile, WMFD had the tallest - actually far from Mansfield, as they had decided to rimshot the Columbus market.

The venture was not successful, because the new site still had a poor signal in most of the Columbus area. In an interesting endeavor, the tall tower was carefully dismantled, arranged into sections, and the tower sections and other necessary hardware was sold for reassembly at another station elsewhere. WMFD moved to a shorter tower not very far from Mansfield.



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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by WOHO » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:02 am

You would be correct:
"the WNWO Tower is a 1,437 feet guy-wired aerial mast for the transmission of FM and TV in Oregon, OH...The WNWO Tower was completed in 1966 and is property of Raycom Media, Inc. It is the tallest man-made structure in Ohio!..."
Look up....look waaaay up!



YpsiGuy
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:59 pm

I get a great signal from WUPW from 43 miles away with a directional UHF antenna. WUPW is 65kW from 1214 foot up.
I figure WNWO should come in very strong when they bring that new Transmitter online.



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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:45 am

The signal will be directional; about 100 kW will be beamed in the direction of Ypsi.

Little RF will be sent in azimuths ranging from 0 degrees to 100 degrees.

Areas SE, S, SW, W and NW of Oregon, OH will receive generous RF.

I see WTOL has an application to increase to 26 kW omni; that would result in a pretty formidable signal from a field strength standpoint across southern Washtenaw, southern Wayne, Lenawee and Monroe Counties.


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YpsiGuy
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:49 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:45 am
The signal will be directional; about 100 kW will be beamed in the direction of Ypsi.

Little RF will be sent in azimuths ranging from 0 degrees to 100 degrees.

Areas SE, S, SW, W and NW of Oregon, OH will receive generous RF.

I see WTOL has an application to increase to 26 kW omni; that would result in a pretty formidable signal from a field strength standpoint across southern Washtenaw, southern Wayne, Lenawee and Monroe Counties.
I assume that 0 to 100 is the direction of Lake Erie and Canada. Their directional pattern is very similar to WUPW’s, but with much higher power.

I get a good, strong signal on WUPW with an Xtreme Signal HDB91X directional UHF antenna. I would assume WNWO will be just as good, or a bit better.

I emailed WTOL to ask them about their pending power boost. They told me it is pending until the repack is completed. They told me that about a year ago, so I would hope they and WTVG can boost power soon. WTVG also has a request pending.



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WOHO
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by WOHO » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:18 pm

Hindsight is 20/20; WTOL and WTVG would have been better served with their old UHF CH 17 and CH19 transitional HDTV signals which had pretty decent coverage with just rabbit ears. Yes, it's nice to maintain your VHF heritage frequency that you've had since 1948/1958, but rabbit ears don't do so well inside on the VHF signals like they do on UHF, so 11 and 13 are at a disadvantage with the rabbit ears and 75% of all antennae sold in stores is designed for only the UHF band and VHF is overlooked by many. WGTE has a pretty decent signal over Toledo, and with WNWO's increase they might match that coverage. I believe that WNWO previously did a 'beam tilt' to improve coverage to a degree?



YpsiGuy
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by YpsiGuy » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:06 pm

WOHO wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:18 pm
Hindsight is 20/20; WTOL and WTVG would have been better served with their old UHF CH 17 and CH19 transitional HDTV signals which had pretty decent coverage with just rabbit ears. Yes, it's nice to maintain your VHF heritage frequency that you've had since 1948/1958, but rabbit ears don't do so well inside on the VHF signals like they do on UHF, so 11 and 13 are at a disadvantage with the rabbit ears and 75% of all antennae sold in stores is designed for only the UHF band and VHF is overlooked by many. WGTE has a pretty decent signal over Toledo, and with WNWO's increase they might match that coverage. I believe that WNWO previously did a 'beam tilt' to improve coverage to a degree?
I get WTVG fairly stable at 42 miles with a Stellar Labs 30-2476 antenna. WTOL on same antenna is edgy. The power boost to each would nail them down good for me.

On both my Detroit and Toledo arrays, I use separate antennas for High VHF and UHF. You are right it’s hard to find an antenna that does well with both bands.



innate-in-you
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Re: WNWO (NBC) Toledo granted FCC license for new 275 kW DTV transmitter.

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:25 pm

(Pardon the nitpick)

WNWO's TL is in Jerusalem Township, and is the easternmost of the Toledo area's TV towers.



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