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737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

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screen glare
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737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by screen glare » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:26 am

The Boeing 737 MAX jets are a design, manufacturing, and safety certification debacle from inception. I refuse to go near them - now or in the future. I won’t fly the untrustworthy rattle-traps - no matter the PR campaign, or ticket price incentives.

And I sure as hell don’t want my kids or grand kids on them.

Hanging bigger engines on the old 737 frame to speed roll out, increase sales, and compete with Airbus is Boeing’s short-sighted folly, and the FAA’s again-revealed irresponsible approach to its task.



Deleted User 14992

Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Deleted User 14992 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:57 am

Boeing is really turning to shit lately it’s not just the 737, I don’t even fly anymore. If I travel it’s by car.
Last edited by Deleted User 14992 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Turkeytop
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Turkeytop » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:31 pm

I used to enjoy flying, but now I hate it. I avoid it when possible. It's not out of safety concerns. It's just that they've taken what used to be a pleasant experience and turned it into a miserable ordeal. Ranks right up there with root canal.

As soon as you enter the terminal you have to surrender your dignity and submit to being herded around like livestock. My maximum time in the air is about 3 hours. Beyond that and I can feel the air rage building up inside me.

When I do have to fly, I try not to book a direct flight. Two or three shorter hops that allow me to have a break off the plane is better for my sanity.



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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:51 pm

I've got a BIL that builds the engines for the MAX and I've been told that frankly there are some fundamental issues with that aircraft that software alone won't completely fix.
Hanging bigger engines on the old 737 frame to speed roll out, increase sales, and compete with Airbus is Boeing’s short-sighted folly, and the FAA’s again-revealed irresponsible approach to its task.
Not the bigger engines per se, but the change in geometry of where they placed them on the wing in order to accommodate the size change. Adding 30 ft. of fuselage behind the wing also changed the geometry for the takeoff profile (angle of attack is less otherwise the tail hits the ground, then you have to go very steep, which sets off the whole stall avoidance chain of events). Additionally the AoA sensors don't have the redundancy the Airbus system incorporates and will be cost-prohibitive to add. (you have to start messing with the airframe to add sensors) Not good considering the sensors themselves don't have a spotless track record.

Personally, it's an aircraft I'd rather not fly in.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by MWmetalhead » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:32 pm

Excellent insight; thanks Lester.

I'm with you guys - sounds like (another) disaster waiting to happen.

I wonder how much Southwest Airlines spent on these shitty aircraft? Weren't they the largest purchaser of the 737 Max domestically?


Fire Blashill!!!!

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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:03 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:32 pm
Excellent insight; thanks Lester.

I'm with you guys - sounds like (another) disaster waiting to happen.

I wonder how much Southwest Airlines spent on these shitty aircraft? Weren't they the largest purchaser of the 737 Max domestically?
Their initial order was for about 250, not sure how many have been delivered although I believe it's around 30. They run around $121M per, list price. That's a lot of tin sitting on the ground for SWA.

Image



screen glare
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by screen glare » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:02 pm

The flying public has ultimate control in this dangerous situation. They can refuse to fly on those planes. Period.

If the public understands that the plane has been fundamentally designed to FIGHT safe flight - and needs constant monitoring to keep the nose down - and the software to counteract that tendency is not optimal, and in fact has a history of failure to counteract safely - and pilots must within seconds react correctly to discern then counteract what’s digitally and aerodynamically going wrong - then the flying public won’t take their seats on Boeing’s bungled beater.

And they will spread the word to their kids and friends that flying on those planes is not an option - if you want to stay alive.



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audiophile
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by audiophile » Wed May 01, 2019 6:39 am

Fly by wire...bad idea.


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Wed May 01, 2019 11:05 am

audiophile wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:39 am
Fly by wire...bad idea.
How so? By wire systems have been in place for years. Properly designed and with sufficient safety backup they save a ton of weight and make for a less complex control system.

If you're driving a reasonably new car to the airport, the by wire systems in it are probably less robust than the plane you're getting on...



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audiophile
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by audiophile » Wed May 01, 2019 3:35 pm

Who cares on a car...most likely you'd just need to call a tow truck.

A software glitch, bad position sensor or a lightning strike could kill you in a plane.

I do not know of any car that has wire-only control on braking and steering, why should it be allowed in planes?
Last edited by audiophile on Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

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Lester The Nightfly
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Wed May 01, 2019 4:04 pm

I believe Brembo has a by wire system available.



km1125
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by km1125 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:12 pm

You guys are funny.

They took a PROVEN airframe and gave it more space, more power and more economy. Neither of those planes would have crashed if the crew followed established procedures that have been in place for decades, however they can (and will) tune the sw control so it's a bit more "forgiving" for pilot errors.

Can't argue with what the airlines have done to make flying any aircraft uncomfortable though.



screen glare
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by screen glare » Wed May 01, 2019 8:39 pm

Boeing should have designed a new airframe to easily accommodate the new dimensions of the new more efficient engines. NOT try to save money by using the old reliable 737 frame, and “force it all to fit and fly” by tweaking
this and that. Especially when those rearrangements caused a TENDENCY to stall - requiring a system to sense looming disaster and software to automatically counteract. WTF!

And what about the disaster-prone design debacle gliding through safety checks and certifications? Is this another reason - in the long list of bloody reasons - the FAA is known as “The Tombstone Agency”?

Then toss into the unforgivable big picture pilots not being adequately warned about the design aberration, and what’s new that they’ll have to understand and expect to avert disaster ( in seconds ) after being surprised perilous things are stubbornly happening only minutes into their doomed flight.



JackAttack FM
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by JackAttack FM » Fri May 03, 2019 9:43 am

audiophile wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:39 am
Fly by wire...bad idea.
The 737 Max is not fly-by-wire.
Rudder and stick control is connected by cables to the flight control surfaces.
The spoilers are electrically controlled though.

I seem to remember a pilot making a successful water landing in the Hudson River in a fly-by-wire airliner with no thrust and no fatalities.



screen glare
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Re: 737 Max Jets. Take a seat?

Post by screen glare » Fri May 03, 2019 11:05 am

Boeing should have designed a new airframe to easily accommodate the new dimensions of the new more efficient engines. NOT try to save money by using the old reliable 737 frame, and “force it all to fit and fly” by tweaking
this and that. Especially when those rearrangements caused a TENDENCY to stall - requiring a system to sense looming disaster and software to automatically counteract. WTF!

And what about the disaster-prone design debacle gliding through safety checks and certifications? Is this another reason - in the long list of bloody reasons - the FAA is known as “The Tombstone Agency”?

Then toss into the unforgivable big picture pilots not being adequately warned about the design aberration, and what’s new that they’ll have to understand, and expect to avert disaster (in seconds) after being surprised when perilous things are stubbornly happening only minutes into their doomed flight.



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