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Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
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mtburb
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by mtburb » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:10 pm

CK-722 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:08 pm
I don't know of a single city with a building of that size, circa 1000 feet, being built, that would be the tallest in that city, that has not ended up with a lot of the FM and or TV stations relocating to the taller tower.
You probably may not know too much about New York City then. Originally, the transmitters for their TV (and possibly some FM) stations were on the Empire State Building. The construction of the original World Trade Center in the 1970's included the relocation of those stations to it's North Tower, with WCBS being the only TV station that continued to maintain facilities at the ESB. This would actually become quite useful once 9/11 happened and they would become the only area TV station to remain on the air in the immediate aftermath until the other stations could return to the air from their old ESB facilities. Nowadays, a small number of TV stations have or are returning to the current World Trade Center, specifically the 1,776-feet One World Trade Center facility.
Last edited by mtburb on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:21 pm

See the edit highlighting the word NOT in RED in my previous post.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:48 pm

Unless some of the existing TX sites outside of downtown Detroit are nearing the end of their useful lives, I'm hard pressed to see a business case where a complete move from the periphery of the city or from southern Oakland County into downtown Detroit would make sense.

Chicago stations need the ability to reach NW Indiana. Also, a high percentage of Chicago's population lives & works in the downtown area. Those residents are often college educated and earn decent living. Also, tower options to the west of the city are limited because of the geographic locations of O'Hare Airport and Midway.

A much smaller percentage of Metro Detroit's population lives or works downtown. Again, why would you trade a good signal in Novi, Commerce Twp., Brighton and South Lyon for a good signal in Brownstown Township, Monroe and Flat Rock?

I work downtown. I've used my NextRadio app on a few occasions just to check things out. The stations with downtown or midtown TX sites come in just a little bit better than the stations broadcasting from 8 Mile, 10 Mile or 11 Mile Rd.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:12 pm

A much smaller percentage of Metro Detroit's population lives or works downtown. Again, why would you trade a good signal in Novi, Commerce Twp., Brighton and South Lyon for a good signal in Brownstown Township, Monroe and Flat Rock?
Go ask WWJ and WXYT (AM). I think they'll know. When logic on power consumption has fallen sloppy dead,
And the white mayor is talking backwards...

I'd like to know what model that app is running. Anything less than Longley Rice at 6 feet AGL RL is suspect. Even better if it models reflections from buildings, existing, existing with Hudson Tower, and proposed. Remember also that CKLW-FM/CIDR, and CKLW-TV/CBET moved after the Ren Cen was built, and were getting severe reflections and blockage from the Ren Cen.

Again, when there's as much steel above ground as below, we'll explore further.

Maybe I have an agenda?


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:42 am

WCSX has the highest HAAT currently at 951 feet at One Radio Plaza.

WDVD and WYCD are both at 787 feet HAAT on the One Radio Plaza tower. Do they dIplex into a single antenna now?

That facility is from a Section 73.213 short spacing agreement with WHNN and WUGN. WDVD is 20 kW, WYCD is 17.5 kW. Cumulus should do a revised forward looking agreement if they can with themselves, WDVD and WHNN, to both be full Class B and full Class C0. The intervening terrain shield should take care of any interference. The Hudson Tower location would lessen both short spacing situations, WDVD and WHNN, and WYCD and WUGN.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:23 pm

Go ask WWJ and WXYT (AM). I think they'll know. When logic on power consumption has fallen sloppy dead,
And the white mayor is talking backwards...
WWJ moved downriver so that their overall coverage footprint could be expanded, not because of a particular desire to concentrate the best signal in Wayne County.

I lived in Ann Arbor and was attending U-M when the 8 Mile Rd. site was decommissioned in favor of the new one. At night - the difference in signal strength was a "push" in Ann Arbor proper. Daytime - the signal from the new site was definitely the stronger of the two. The improvement was also noticeable in Livingston County. I would say the nighttime signal in Livingston signal is also stronger today than it was during the days the 8 Mile Rd site was in use.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:44 pm

I live near Utica. I had two field strength meters loaned to me for extended periods back in the 1990-2000 era. 5000 watt WWJ measured 20 mV/m in the Daytime. The new facility measured 9.5 mV/m at Night. When I had to send the meter back, the 50 kW Daytime array was not yet complete, but would have been less due to the Day vs. Night IDF pattern. The North was sacrificed to get a better "West Zone" signal, the beam width of the day pattern is greater. I used to be able to get a marginally listenable signal from WWJ Days in my office near Lakeside Mall. Now it is extremely noisy on the Sony CF Series Circuit AM-FM Cassette Alarm Clock Radio. WJR and CKLW are also close to 20 mV/m, as was WBRB Back In The Day. WUFL is close to 100 mV/m there, and is the ONLY AM to put a truly listenable signal inside a steel building.

6+ dB is quite a reduction. But it is even more reduced within a 10 mile radius of the old towers, both WWJ and WXYT. That area has about 2,000,000 people in it. It's OK indoors at home, at least WWJ.

Skywave returns for WWJ near Pellston are as high as 10 mV/m at Night. As one of the posters from here who edits the Wikipedia article for WWJ, pointed out, it has the largest major lobe IDF of any station in the United States. I listen every Night when I am up near the Straits. WFDF with 25 kW is also close to as high as 7 mV/m at Night near the Straits, and usually quite a bit better than in Macomb County. WFDF (50 kW Daytime) and WWJ are both quite listenable up to West Branch on I-75 in the Daytime. I am told they are both even stronger along the Sunrise Side near Tawas City and Oscoda, but haven't had the time to take the scenic US 23 route to check it out. They are both like slow fading International Shortwave stations at Night, due to the much longer wavelength. Too bad that MAB Past Presidents Elmer Knopf and Don DeGroot aren't still around to hear it. They could brag to their friend (yes, in those days they were friends, unlike today's cut throat competition) MAB Past President and former FCC Chairman Jim Quello that their signals are now better than WJR is up there! Rich will soon be by to point out that this is only in one narrow direction. After 97 years, they're still the TOP THREE RATED AMs in the market! OK, distant second and very distant third.
Last edited by CK-722 on Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:52 pm

For the reasons you cite, I wish they still were using the 8 Mile Rd site today. Never had a chance to hear them broadcast with 5 kW from there since moving into the heart of the metro.

I did, however, have a chance to hear 1270 broadcast from Southfield, and its signal from that location was absolutely scorching in the SW part of Sterling Heights. Every bit as strong as 760 WJR, if not stronger.

I can only imagine how spectacular 950 would've sounded with the same amount of power but from a lower dial position.

I get a ridiculous amount of noise when tuned to 950 and traveling along Southfield Rd. between 696 and 14 Mile.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:25 pm

Hadn't thought about the PATH between Downriver and Ann Arbor, which if you look at that Quaternary Geology Map Of Michigan, is all Clay Silt, in awhile. Probably > 8. On the other hand, between 8 Mile Meyers and to the West Southwest, it crosses some less favorable areas to the signal North of Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti. On the WMVP Daytime Appication, the WDEO Proof of Performance Conductivity for that area, is less that 8. That may be why the Downriver WWJ came in better Days there. WJR and WFDF boom in too. WWJ isn't as good there at Night as WFDF due to the narrow WWJ pattern, at least near US 23 and Plymouth Rd. WJR and WFDF are almost as strong, or stronger there than, the Washtenaw County stations.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by innate-in-you » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:32 pm

Getting back to the proposed construction at the former J.L. Hudson site:

I doubt Detroit's FMs would benefit from moving to Downtown Detroit.

Such a move would put the signal further away from Oakland and Livingston counties, where the target listeners live (True, the signal along Woodward would still be excellent), while increasing coverage in SW Ontario. Plenty of people in SW Ontario listen to the stations on the American side, but the American stations would not get any benefits in selling airtime.

The drawback would be Livingston County. It is both growing rapidly and becoming more upscale.

The extant transmitters in SE Oakland county are higher than the ground level in Livingston, and cover it well.

Contrast this with a Downtown site miles Southeast of those hills and ridges. Signal quality in Livingston could suffer.

Growing up in Detroit's East Side, I was on the other side of the equation. The original Channel 62, WXON, built their TL near 14 Mile and Beck. Their tower was about half the height of its competitors - yet had their antenna as high above sea level as the stations in Southfield, because old 62's site was in the hills.

In my neighborhood, 50 and 56 were fair on our set if the loop was in the right place.

62 was weaker and always looked as if it were coming in by Sporadic-E skip.



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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:48 am

WRIF, WOMC, WKQI, WXYT-FM, and WCSX, maybe even short spaced WDVD (to coowned WHNN) and WYCD (to FLR's WUGN), are probably too good to mess with, I agree, grandfathering and such. WCSX has the short spaced Port Clinton station on 94.5 also, as well as WCEN-FM Hemlock.

I saw on the History Card that WWJ-FM wanted to go to a Super Power facility back when it was allowed, like WXYZ-FM. Like I may have said, in another thread, the management of all the old Network stations were all CLOSE friends, and moved in the same circles and did the same things, and especially including FM plans, when the FM stations weren't that competitive back then. I have pictures to prove it (in a library book anyway)!

But others might want to consider it. Especially the ones within a few miles.


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Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:50 pm

Anyone see any construction above ground at the building site?

I think some people are rejecting the idea of the multiplex site on the basis of personal safety in the vicinity. I understand their concern. The building would likely have its own security police force, if large buildings and complexes in other cities are any indication.

In Chicago, in the 1960s and 1970s, it was just the opposite. Engineers didn't want to work regularly at the big AM transmitter sites because it was like being sent to Siberia, and gave little chance of advancement, since even if you did a great job, no one would see and notice. Chuck Lee told me that in so many words.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:15 pm

In 1953, WWJ-FM filed an application for 100 kW from 900 feet on the WWJ-TV 4 tower, which was allowed in remote areas of Zone II, which it was then, before Zone I was expanded. Not sure why it was
turned down. I'll see if I can find out. I'll look to see when WXYZ-FM and WOMC and WLDM were approved with Class B superfacilities . They could exceed 20 kW/500 feet HAAT if it was deemed in the public interest. Back then, it was wide open. Protected to 60 dBu, all classes. That's what WWTV-FM had, though the Site AGL is way different. It's where WXYT-FM's antenna is now, with 15 kW. On the WDIV-TV tower.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

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