Acceptable registrations in the queue through March 16 at 11:00a ET have now been activated. Enjoy! -M.W.

Terms of Use have been amended effective October 6, 2019. Make sure you are aware of the new rules! Please visit this thread for details: https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... 16&t=48619

Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

A place to go for those of you who wish to discuss happenings in OH, IN, IL, WI, and Ontario. OSU sucks, by the way.
JGP1954
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:47 am
Location: Detroit Area

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by JGP1954 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:03 pm

TeddyBear wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:13 pm
Gary Fullhart wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:45 pm
JGP1954 - I'm a broadcast engineer. Directional FM antennas are real. They are not that common and are not as effective as AM directionals, but they do exist. They usually just consist of extra passive elements attached to the tower to keep the pattern from being circular, just as the tower itself distorts the pattern. WKKO has a little bit of a null to the north, from back in the days when it was owned by Booth and they also owned Detroit stations. WXKR sends more signal east and west than north/south. That allowed them to move closer to Toledo from Port Clinton. And WMIM (98.3 Monroe) has a little bit of a null to the southwest, to protect 98.1 in Defiance.
Thank you Gary.

JGP- It's not like how WLQR-AM was directional. WTOD almost looked like a strange lily from it's side view. The fact that an FM nulls, means it's directional. This is opposed to nondirectional.
OK, sorry I just saw your submission. When I was in radio there was no such thing, or at least I never heard of it. And, believe we tried everything to get more out of our FM signal. So, if I understand you, they can attach some gismo to alter your 360 degree broadcast pattern to protect another stations signal. So obviously, the FCC has allowed many more stations on the air, so that the old ways of separation are no longer effective. And stations that have been on the air for decades may have to alter their signal to allow more stations on the air. Not counting the translator FMs, what are the limits to how many stations are allowed on the FM spectrum, these days?



JGP1954
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:47 am
Location: Detroit Area

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by JGP1954 » Tue May 11, 2021 12:44 pm

I listened to 98.3 for a couple of hours on Sunday, May 9th, Mother's Day, and they were airing a fair amount of commercials. Although I didn't keep count, they seemed busy and didn't sound too bad. Of course, I don't think there was any local talent, but they sounded Monroe branded. By the way, the signal fizzled out around Lake Erie Metro Park on Jefferson, near the Detroit River.



innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by innate-in-you » Tue May 11, 2021 1:11 pm

JGP1954 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am
More info on broadcast signal patterns can be found at www.radio-locator.com. And, the WCSM broadcast pattern shows no null toward Monroe. Again, other conditions could affect their signal in that area. According to the Radio-Locator drawing, it appears the WCSX primary signal weakens toward Monroe, but its not an engineered null like many AMs have. Also again, I'm not an engineer, but I still maintain there's no such thing as a directional FM signal. I've never seen one in forty years. I'd like a broadcast engineer to comment on this subject.
In the last decade or so, many FM stations use a DA to maximize their coverage.



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by Ben Zonia » Tue May 11, 2021 1:41 pm

I'd have to look at the situation closer, but it looks to me like when the FCC increased the Class A to Class B 2nd and 3rd adjacent minimum separation from 40 to about 43 miles, they were left in a situation where they couldn't meaningfully upgrade beyond the 3 kW/100 meter equivalent. Many 3 kW Class As are STILL in this situation. I suspect they were just barely 40 miles or so from WJLB 97.9 and WDZH 98.7. The NIMBYs may have prevented a site a few miles further South. Otherwise a 6 kW equivalent facility could probably done as good or better than the WKKO 99.9 tower site. I see no sufficiently tall towers within a few miles further South of the old site on the vfrmap.com site. Or maybe they just wanted their tower in Ohio, or didn't want to build a new tower.

Just realized that the Class A to Class B 1st adjacent separation also increased from 65 to about 70 miles. There may not be a fully spaced site to all stations. WDFM is on 98.1 and is a Class B. But a tower North of Toledo in Michigan, a few miles South of the old site might put the null at a better angle so a DA serves more of Toledo. If it's further away, the null might be shallower than the presently authorized 248 watts, which goes right toward Toledo. I think the area North of Toledo near Lake Erie may be a resort area with a lot of NIMBYs, and that might also be a problem to build a new or taller tower.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by Ben Zonia » Tue May 11, 2021 9:11 pm

I was right. It's in the short spaced zone to WDZH and WJLB and WDFM, created by newer FCC rules. Can't find coordinates on land that are fully spaced. Maybe in Lake Erie, but you can't build it there. Though a location North of Luna Pier along the shoreline would have the possibility of a shallower null and more signal over Toledo. There was a site just West of what looks like a Marina on the satellite view (buildings to store boats for the Winter and showing a bunch of boats outside on the property) that was closest to working. NIMBYs would probably stop it even there.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
MWmetalhead
Site Admin
Posts: 11871
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:23 am

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed May 12, 2021 5:58 am

Also again, I'm not an engineer, but I still maintain there's no such thing as a directional FM signal. I've never seen one in forty years. I'd like a broadcast engineer to comment on this subject.
If you are suggesting directional FM signals are "fake," you're incorrect.

Great example is WWCK-FM in Flint. Signal goes to crap 25 to 30 miles SE of Flint but comes in loudly & clearly 25 to 30 miles SW of Flint. It was built that way by design.

Another great example is the FM translator at 99.9 FM that transmits from Eight Mile Rd along the Detroit / Royal Oak Twp border. Five miles south of that site, the signal becomes virtually unlistenable. Ten miles to the north, it is loud and clear. Again, built that way by design.

Other examples:
- 96.9 WBTI in Lexington, MI (north of Pt. Huron)
- 94.5 WCEN-FM in Hemlock (near Mt. Pleasant)
- 88.1 WLGH in Leroy Township (near Lansing)
- 107.9 WCDY in Cadillac.
And, why would they exist? The FCC already has guidelines in place to separate frequencies, etc.
Usually, they exist to comport to contour-to-contour interference limits between the subject station and nearby co-channel, first adjacent, second adjacent, or third adjacent channel stations. Some stations that can be built omnidirectionally from their city of license often cannot be built omnidirectionally from their chosen TX site (which could be 10, 15 or even 20 miles away from the city of license) and still meet spacing requirements. One solution to that dilemma is to go directional.

Grandfathered "super powered" stations such as WSRW-FM in Grand Rapids, which vacate their originally licensed TX site to move to a new TX site, introduce a different but similar set of circumstances.

By going directional, stations can often add square mileage to their coverage areas that would not otherwise exist if they simply operated with the maximum permissible omni signal. Directional signals can be particularly useful if a station wants to maximize RF over a significant city or wants to move its TX site closer to a target city than what would otherwise be possible (such as 98.3 Luna Pier vis-a-vis Toledo; remember, the old "Tower 98" was gearing its programming to greater Toledo at the time of its relocation).



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by Ben Zonia » Wed May 12, 2021 11:44 am

WMIM only radiates 248 watts toward WDFM Defiance, OH from Oregon, OH, across the City of Toledo.

https://www.fccdata.org/?lang=en&facid= ... 3ebeb7&i=2

One reason WVGR went DA (to keep 108 kW as their ERP under Section 73.211). Otherwise, if they moved again, they would be stuck at a lower ERP.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/73.211

WWCK-FM is DA to protect the vacant 288A allotment in Chatham, ON. If they could be at or near the WDZZ site at 100 meters HAAT (probably can't be because the DA would be in the aperture of the WDZZ antenna, unless they could increase the height), they could probably have a better pattern and substantially more ERP to the SE. The null could increase from 3 kW to 5 kW at least, more if further north. They could be about 5 miles closer to WBMI without being short spaced. WDZZ location is about 3 miles. Interesting fact: WWCK-FM is almost exactly the same distance from WQQO and WBMI.

From observing various stations, going from 3 kW Nondirectional to 6 kW Directional has very little positive effect on signal and coverage, due to the actual pattern vs. favorable mounting of 3 kW Nondirectional antennas. Many short spaced stations use the maximum nondirectional ERP under Section 73.215 instead of DA.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

JGP1954
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:47 am
Location: Detroit Area

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by JGP1954 » Sat May 15, 2021 12:24 pm

Ben Zonia wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:41 pm
I'd have to look at the situation closer, but it looks to me like when the FCC increased the Class A to Class B 2nd and 3rd adjacent minimum separation from 40 to about 43 miles, they were left in a situation where they couldn't meaningfully upgrade beyond the 3 kW/100 meter equivalent. Many 3 kW Class As are STILL in this situation. I suspect they were just barely 40 miles or so from WJLB 97.9 and WDZH 98.7. The NIMBYs may have prevented a site a few miles further South. Otherwise a 6 kW equivalent facility could probably done as good or better than the WKKO 99.9 tower site. I see no sufficiently tall towers within a few miles further South of the old site on the vfrmap.com site. Or maybe they just wanted their tower in Ohio, or didn't want to build a new tower.

Just realized that the Class A to Class B 1st adjacent separation also increased from 65 to about 70 miles. There may not be a fully spaced site to all stations. WDFM is on 98.1 and is a Class B. But a tower North of Toledo in Michigan, a few miles South of the old site might put the null at a better angle so a DA serves more of Toledo. If it's further away, the null might be shallower than the presently authorized 248 watts, which goes right toward Toledo. I think the area North of Toledo near Lake Erie may be a resort area with a lot of NIMBYs, and that might also be a problem to build a new or taller tower.
Again, I'm not an engineer, but I have a basic idea about what you're talking about. However, I'm a bit lost with some the jargon. Example, what does "NIMBY" stand for?



User avatar
WOHO
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:05 am
Location: 2965 Pickle Rd.

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by WOHO » Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am

Not In My Back Yard (you ain't putting no lightning rod radio tower)!



senpaisai
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:37 pm

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by senpaisai » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:44 am

JGP1954 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:35 pm
senpaisai wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:07 pm
WOHO wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:08 pm
When they were WVMO, and early Tower 98, where was the transmitter tower located? Still in Monroe County, not Jerusalem Township, no?
I believe it was located near the corner of Dunbar and La Plaisance in Monroe county - just west of I-75 ...

There was a service drive just past the railroad tracks (heading east) that led to the transmitter.

That was before the relocation to Luna Pier ...
I don't recall, but I believe this location might be correct. When I was working at early Tower 98, I don't recall anyone mentioning a tower relocation plan. And honestly, Lesnick had many other issues to deal with. As far as FM nulls are concerned, I indicated that there are natural occurring nulls. But, every FM station I ever heard of is nondirectional or omni, and one has one broadcast tower.
Did some digging and found some info on Google Books regarding FCC decisions. Made these three screenshots ...

https://i.imgur.com/TehfPWS.png
https://i.imgur.com/7ODOObl.png
https://i.imgur.com/J5XqlGY.png

Cumulus proposed to move the WTWR transmitter from the Dunbar location to "2.9 miles northwest" of Luna Pier some time after the year 2000 after apparently being turned down on building a new transmitter at the Luna Pier site. That would seemingly put it in the area of South Dixie HWY and Cousino perhaps. Interesting footnote is Cumulus also parked the WLLZ calls at an AM station here ...



User avatar
WOHO
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:05 am
Location: 2965 Pickle Rd.

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by WOHO » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:12 am

Had that tower NW of Luna Pier come to light, and there was enough real estate there, it could have been part of an AM array for WJYM 730-AM so they could send all their signal to the Southwest and hit the City of Toledo and BG in 2003. Opportunity long gone. Cumulus would do better blowing-up 98.3 and 93.1 and going to Doug-FM, IMO.



Deleted User 15062

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by Deleted User 15062 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 am

I say to just blow them all up. Radio is dying. It will soon be just like the wooden nickel or shortwave. Why replace them, when stations are losing money left and right. Add language restrictions and site maintenance... too much hassle compared to internet streaming.

Oh that's right... Cumulus tried already. Remember "Rdio?"



Deleted User 15062

Re: Will 98.3 in Monroe Re-brand or Flip?

Post by Deleted User 15062 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:19 am

WOHO wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am
Not In My Back Yard (you ain't putting no lightning rod radio tower)!
"Or cancer stick." is what one Toledo voice tracker had once said, when he got lumps removed. Hint: Lew Jr's ex bf.



Post Reply Previous topicNext topic