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WTOL NFL game choices

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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by format this » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:26 am

EnbyCee wrote:(Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, I'm a Packers fan. Although Steelers fans annoy the hell out of me)

Last week, the Browns and Lions played separate games that both aired on CBS at 1:00. Although the Browns are having one of the worst seasons in NFL history and the Lions are driving for the NFC North championship, we got the Browns game on WTOL. "This is Browns country, the Browns always have priority on CBS, etc.". This week, the Browns are getting preempted on WTOL.....in favor of the STEELERS, not the Lions. The station essentially said on Facebook "Don't blame us, it's the network's decision.". Strange. I guess the years of Steelers bandwagoning in the 419 may have finally given them top priority around here.
Cleveland is an AFC team (as is Pittsburgh), and most AFC games are broadcast by CBS, where FOX has the NFC games (Lions and Packers and Bears, oh my). Needless to say, WTOL doesn't call the shots, the network and NFL do.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by Some Guy from Toledo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:54 am

EnbyCee wrote:(Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, I'm a Packers fan. Although Steelers fans annoy the hell out of me)

Last week, the Browns and Lions played separate games that both aired on CBS at 1:00. Although the Browns are having one of the worst seasons in NFL history and the Lions are driving for the NFC North championship, we got the Browns game on WTOL. "This is Browns country, the Browns always have priority on CBS, etc.". This week, the Browns are getting preempted on WTOL.....in favor of the STEELERS, not the Lions. The station essentially said on Facebook "Don't blame us, it's the network's decision.". Strange. I guess the years of Steelers bandwagoning in the 419 may have finally given them top priority around here.
Well that sucks.



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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by Radiobingoking » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:31 pm

I am picking my brain from long ago but, if I remember correctly it has to do with the old 60 mile blackout rule. When the Lions played at Briggs Stadium WTOL could not broadcast the Lions because they were within the 60 mile radius. That meant the WJIM was the nearest station that could carry them. When the Lions moved to the Silverdome there was mush speculation that WTOL would carry the Lions because the 'Dome was more than 60 miles from Toledo. The NFL ruled at that time that neither station could carry them as Lansing was within 60 miles of the Dome and Toledo was within the limit from Detroit.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by mtburb » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:29 am

Actually the blackout radius was 75 miles. The WJIM transmitter was barely within the 75-mile radius of Tiger Stadium (if their transmitter was already in Okemos at the time). Also, this meant that WTOL still would've been within the 75-mile zone once they moved to the Silverdome.

Something else to realize though is that the 75-mile radius resulted in some crazy stuff. The entire state of Arizona was subject to blackouts of Cardinals games, same with Colorado for Broncos games. Also, a very, very, very tiny silver of the Syracuse DMA (consisting only of fields and the town of Italy) in New York fell within the 75-mile radius surrounding the Bills stadium, while the entirety of the rest of the market fell outside of it, therefore it too was included in the blackout zone for the Bills. Italy is now in the Rochester DMA, but the Syracuse market still faced blackouts up until the rules were suspended in 2015.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by Some Guy from Toledo » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:43 pm

Radiobingoking wrote:I am picking my brain from long ago but, if I remember correctly it has to do with the old 60 mile blackout rule. When the Lions played at Briggs Stadium WTOL could not broadcast the Lions because they were within the 60 mile radius. That meant the WJIM was the nearest station that could carry them. When the Lions moved to the Silverdome there was mush speculation that WTOL would carry the Lions because the 'Dome was more than 60 miles from Toledo. The NFL ruled at that time that neither station could carry them as Lansing was within 60 miles of the Dome and Toledo was within the limit from Detroit.
This is why rules are total BS to me.
mtburb wrote:Something else to realize though is that the 75-mile radius resulted in some crazy stuff. The entire state of Arizona was subject to blackouts of Cardinals games, same with Colorado for Broncos games. Also, a very, very, very tiny silver of the Syracuse DMA (consisting only of fields and the town of Italy) in New York fell within the 75-mile radius surrounding the Bills stadium, while the entirety of the rest of the market fell outside of it, therefore it too was included in the blackout zone for the Bills. Italy is now in the Rochester DMA, but the Syracuse market still faced blackouts up until the rules were suspended in 2015.
Well, glad for them I guess, that is pretty terribly thought-out.



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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by ftballfan » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:51 pm

mtburb wrote:Actually the blackout radius was 75 miles. The WJIM transmitter was barely within the 75-mile radius of Tiger Stadium (if their transmitter was already in Okemos at the time). Also, this meant that WTOL still would've been within the 75-mile zone once they moved to the Silverdome.

Something else to realize though is that the 75-mile radius resulted in some crazy stuff. The entire state of Arizona was subject to blackouts of Cardinals games, same with Colorado for Broncos games. Also, a very, very, very tiny silver of the Syracuse DMA (consisting only of fields and the town of Italy) in New York fell within the 75-mile radius surrounding the Bills stadium, while the entirety of the rest of the market fell outside of it, therefore it too was included in the blackout zone for the Bills. Italy is now in the Rochester DMA, but the Syracuse market still faced blackouts up until the rules were suspended in 2015.
AFAIK, Grand Junction is outside the 75 mile radius of Denver and is its own market. With the 75 mile rule, WWMT just barely scraped by as the closest part of the Grand Rapids DMA (the northeast corner of Calhoun County) is about 76 miles OTA from the Silverdome. On a side note, Traverse City-Cadillac is quite close to being a Packers secondary market (Big Sable Point is about 82 miles from Lambeau Field).

The 75 mile rule wasn't applied in all cases, as if it were strictly applied, Grand Rapids would have been a secondary Bears market as the southwest tip of Van Buren County's peninsula is within 75 miles of Soldier Field (however, the only thing of note in that area is the nuclear plant; Covert and South Haven are just outside of 75 miles)



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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by mtburb » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Newer posts in this thread were lost in the purge, so I'm again bumping this to describe in detail how this happened.

First off, Toledo is a secondary market for only one NFL team--the Lions. This according to this list posted on an archived version of 506sports.com:
Arizona: Tucson
Atlanta: none
Baltimore: Washington, Salisbury, Harrisburg PA
Buffalo: Rochester, Syracuse, Erie PA
Carolina: Greensboro, Raleigh, Florence SC, Columbia SC, Spartanburg SC
Chicago: Rockford, South Bend
Cincinnati: Dayton, Lexington KY
Cleveland: Youngstown
Dallas: Sherman, Wichita Falls, Waco, Tyler
Denver: Colorado Springs
Detroit: Flint/Saginaw, Lansing, Toledo
Green Bay: Milwaukee, Wausau
Houston: Beaumont, Bryan
Indianapolis: Fort Wayne, Lafayette, Terre Haute
Jacksonville: Orlando, Gainesville, Savannah GA
Kansas City: Topeka KS
Miami: West Palm Beach, Fort Myers
Minnesota: Mankato, Rochester MN, Mason City IA
New England: Providence
New Orleans: Baton Rouge, Biloxi MS
NY Giants/NY Jets: none
Oakland/San Francisco: Sacramento, Monterey
Philadelphia: Harrisburg, Scranton
Pittsburgh: Altoona, Wheeling WV, Clarksburg WV, Youngstown OH
St. Louis: Cape Girardeau, Jefferson City, Columbia
San Diego: Los Angeles, Palm Springs
Seattle: none
Tampa Bay: Orlando
Tennessee: Chattanooga, Jackson TN, Bowling Green KY
Washington: Baltimore
This is even despite signals of Toledo's stations reaching within the 75-mile circle from First Energy Stadium in addition to Ford Field. Because of this, WTOL usually (although it doesn't have to), whenever possible, airs (at most minimum) all Browns road games, while WUPW must, whenever possible, air all Lions games.

Below are a couple of past NFL afternoon game broadcasts in Toledo and the primary markets of the two teams from 506sports archives. This first one is from week 16 of the 2011 season:

Detroit: San Diego @ Detroit CBS, Giants @ Jets Fox early, no late Fox game due to primary team at home
Toledo: Cleveland @ Baltimore CBS, Saint Louis @ Pittsburgh Fox early, Philadelphia @ Dallas Fox late
Cleveland: Cleveland @ Baltimore CBS, Giants @ Jets Fox early, Philadelphia @ Dallas Fox late

This of course lead to viewer frustration as, because the Browns were on the road, WTOL was forced to air that game instead of the Lions game (which they would win and subsequently earn a playoff spot).

This next one is from week 2 of the 2014 season:

Detroit: New England @ Minnesota CBS early, Jets @ Green Bay CBS late, Detroit @ Carolina Fox
Toledo: Atlanta @ Cincinnati CBS early, Kansas City @ Denver CBS late, Detroit @ Carolina Fox
Cleveland: no early CBS game due to primary team at home, Kansas City @ Denver CBS late, New Orleans @ Cleveland Fox

As the Browns had a promising start to the 2014 season before falling apart to a losing record, there was bound to be some extent of frustration as WUPW had to air the Lions because they were on the road, although it has to be taken into account that this, like 2011, was a season where the Lions would ultimately land in the playoffs.
Last edited by mtburb on Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by MWmetalhead » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:14 pm

I know Grand Rapids often sees a different out-of-market contest than Detroit.

A couple weekends ago, we got Kansas City - Baltimore on CBS (certainly a decent game) whereas Grand Rapids got to see the thrilling Miami - New England game!

If you look at the secondary market list, in general, there aren't many TV markets listed. It seems to be a selective list by design.

How do the secondary markets get chosen? Does the NFL front office choose unilaterally, or does it solicit input from individual franchises?

I noticed Louisville wasn't on the Bengals' list (folks on the Indiana side of the river are thankful for that, I suspect), and I also noticed Eau Claire wasn't on the Vikings' list.

I also see that Atlantic City didn't make the list for either NY franchise or for Philly.

I completely agree that it seems odd that Toledo wouldn't be on the Browns' list of markets.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by mtburb » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:14 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:14 pm
I also see that Atlantic City didn't make the list for either NY franchise or for Philly.
That's because Atlantic City is not it's own DMA at all--it's part of the Philadelphia DMA, plus it's last network station, WMGM, was forced to drop NBC in 2014 due to requests from O&O WCAU.

I do agree on how odd these secondary market choices get. I never really understood why Harrisburg is a secondary market for Baltimore or why Orlando is a secondary market for Jacksonville.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by JackAttack FM » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:09 pm

EnbyCee wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:24 pm
(Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, I'm a Packers fan. Although Steelers fans annoy the hell out of me)

Last week, the Browns and Lions played separate games that both aired on CBS at 1:00. Although the Browns are having one of the worst seasons in NFL history and the Lions are driving for the NFC North championship, we got the Browns game on WTOL. "This is Browns country, the Browns always have priority on CBS, etc.". This week, the Browns are getting preempted on WTOL.....in favor of the STEELERS, not the Lions. The station essentially said on Facebook "Don't blame us, it's the network's decision.". Strange. I guess the years of Steelers bandwagoning in the 419 may have finally given them top priority around here.
Dude, I'm sorry but, none of this makes sense.

The December 9th. (Week 13) Chicago @ NY Giants and LA Rams @ Detroit were both 1pm games and were on FOX. Not CBS.

The Cleveland @ Houston game aired on CBS (WTOL 11) as scheduled.

When you say "This week" do you mean the weekend you posted or the coming weekend?

Because Week 15 the Cleveland @ Denver game aired on the NFL Network Saturday at 8pm December 15th.
The New England @ Pittsburgh game was the late CBS game on Sunday, 16th, and aired nationwide.

And Week 16, December 23rd, the Cincinnati @ Cleveland game is the first CBS game (scheduled for Toledo) and then the Pittsburgh @ New Orleans game is nationwide on the second CBS game.
The Lions game is on FOX.



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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by mtburb » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:18 pm

JackAttack FM wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:09 pm
EnbyCee wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:24 pm
(Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, I'm a Packers fan. Although Steelers fans annoy the hell out of me)

Last week, the Browns and Lions played separate games that both aired on CBS at 1:00. Although the Browns are having one of the worst seasons in NFL history and the Lions are driving for the NFC North championship, we got the Browns game on WTOL. "This is Browns country, the Browns always have priority on CBS, etc.". This week, the Browns are getting preempted on WTOL.....in favor of the STEELERS, not the Lions. The station essentially said on Facebook "Don't blame us, it's the network's decision.". Strange. I guess the years of Steelers bandwagoning in the 419 may have finally given them top priority around here.
Dude, I'm sorry but, none of this makes sense.

The December 9th. (Week 13) Chicago @ NY Giants and LA Rams @ Detroit were both 1pm games and were on FOX. Not CBS.

The Cleveland @ Houston game aired on CBS (WTOL 11) as scheduled.

When you say "This week" do you mean the weekend you posted or the coming weekend?

Because Week 15 the Cleveland @ Denver game aired on the NFL Network Saturday at 8pm December 15th.
The New England @ Pittsburgh game was the late CBS game on Sunday, 16th, and aired nationwide.

And Week 16, December 23rd, the Cincinnati @ Cleveland game is the first CBS game (scheduled for Toledo) and then the Pittsburgh @ New Orleans game is nationwide on the second CBS game.
The Lions game is on FOX.
By "This week" he meant the December 2016 week when this thread was originally created.


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by G G » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:50 pm

People still watch the anti American football games?


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Re: WTOL NFL game choices

Post by hanson » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:17 pm

G G wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:50 pm
People still watch the anti American football games?
I like football



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