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Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Covers all of Northern Lower Michigan (from Ludington to Tawas northward), as well as the Straits Area and Soo Region.
hunterw
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Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by hunterw » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:25 pm

Has anyone been able to receive the greenbay TV stations over the air successfully 24/7 from manistee/Ludington area. Currently have the televes LR uhf antenna with amplifier about 10 ft off the ground hooked up to Amazon recast and get 2, 14, 26, 38 in during parts of the day with out any fades or spatter. Location Under a mile from Lake Michigan.

Is there anything I could do or get that would help pull the stations in better.



Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:55 pm

They could put the stations back in analog, and WBAY-TV and WFRV-TV back on 2 and 5 VHF Low, and WLUK back to 316 kW on 11, which worked in the old days.

Otherwise, you could try making a Channel Master 4251 from scratch with plans and trying that since they don't make it any more.

http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm


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CurlyHoward
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by CurlyHoward » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:06 am

But, but, digital TV is the great wave of the future!! It totally wasn't forced on us to make more people throw up their hands and get cable!



Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:02 am

Everyone should make four CM-4251s to stack. I did see something like a 32 bay stacked Yagi in Okemos to try to pick up the DTVs from Detroit in Okemos North of Meridian Mall for an apartment complex MATV system. That system might work. According to some, you could add two VHF High Folded Dipoles at the focus of the Parabolic Reflectors, even though theoretically they should be bigger for those wavelengths. This could be replaced with a single equivalent 14 foot parabolic reflector of similar design.

Lester Lindow of Maximum Service Telecasters must be spinning in his grave.

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Kennelly Heaviside. The best Technical Consultant no money can buy.

Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:07 am

Gain Curve in dBd. Watch out for antennas that specify dBi (isotropic). Subtract 2.15 from dBi to get dBd for comparison.

Isotropic is based on a point source antenna which radiates and receives equally in all spherical directions. An isotropic antenna cannot physically be built. It has a "gain" of MINUS 2.15 dB over a tuned dipole.

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Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:53 pm

OK, here's a possible solution, with the right low loss combiners. A 16 Bay UHF Bowtie with reflecting screen.

This is within the realm of possibility if you are somewhat good working with antennas.

Theoretically, without the losses of combining the antennas, a 16 Bay antenna would have 9 dB more gain than a 4 Bay antenna.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/16bay.html


Kennelly Heaviside. The best Technical Consultant no money can buy.

Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:03 pm



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makitaman
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by makitaman » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:15 pm

The answer to your first question…….WCWF RF15 is 24/7 here in Kingsley. They are directing a 700KW signal towards the east and being 475 feet above lake level with a Winegard HD 9095P at 35 feet it never drops out. RF 12, 14, 23 are around 85% and RF 36 is 50%

RF 22 is blocked by Harrietta and RF 25 is blocked by WWTV out of Traverse City (I sure miss WPNE since it moved to 25)



hunterw
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by hunterw » Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:38 pm

Kennelly Heaviside wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:53 pm
OK, here's a possible solution, with the right low loss combiners. A 16 Bay UHF Bowtie with reflecting screen.

This is within the realm of possibility if you are somewhat good working with antennas.

Theoretically, without the losses of combining the antennas, a 16 Bay antenna would have 9 dB more gain than a 4 Bay antenna.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/16bay.html


Not sure how big I can build out an antenna since I’m in downtown manistee. I definitely interested in getting one set up. How high would I have to go above to make a difference with reception.
makitaman wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:15 pm
The answer to your first question…….WCWF RF15 is 24/7 here in Kingsley. They are directing a 700KW signal towards the east and being 475 feet above lake level with a Winegard HD 9095P at 35 feet it never drops out. RF 12, 14, 23 are around 85% and RF 36 is 50%

RF 22 is blocked by Harrietta and RF 25 is blocked by WWTV out of Traverse City (I sure miss WPNE since it moved to 25)


Interesting how far inland wcwf comes in. Right now I’m able to pull in fox 6 from milwaukee along with cbs 58, and WISN 12 during the day on and off. Haven’t got WTMJ 4 in at all here (prob blocked by a co-channel on 32). From Green Bay WBAY seems to stay in almost all day. WCWF is a close second, then WGBA and WPNE. WFRV and WLUK are on vhf still and don’t think they would come in well and currently do not have a VHF antenna. Currently don’t get any Cad/TC stations due to antenna aim and prob would get Milwaukee in better if I rotated it.



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Ben Zonia
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Ben Zonia » Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:40 pm

You want to get it above the local obstructions to the signal path. If the nearby houses are two story, you need to clear them. But most installations of big antennas shown on that site and the k6sti site are barely above the ranch roof line.


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Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:15 am

It appears that Televes uses dBi gain figures, which are 2.15 dBi higher than dBd. So you might want to take their gain figures taking that into consideration. I'm not sure how they are getting VHF High gain, even 5 dBi. It is good that they have a resonant VHF Low Folded Dipole. One person's review noted that the folded dipole "osculated". I don't know if this was a spellcheck error or not. I think he meant oscillating. Folded dipoles hum in the wind at a resonant audio freqeuncy, like a guitar or piano string.. That's why most antenna designs got away from them.


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hunterw
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by hunterw » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:23 pm

Kennelly Heaviside wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:15 am
It appears that Televes uses dBi gain figures, which are 2.15 dBi higher than dBd. So you might want to take their gain figures taking that into consideration. I'm not sure how they are getting VHF High gain, even 5 dBi. It is good that they have a resonant VHF Low Folded Dipole. One person's review noted that the folded dipole "osculated". I don't know if this was a spellcheck error or not. I think he meant oscillating. Folded dipoles hum in the wind at a resonant audio freqeuncy, like a guitar or piano string.. That's why most antenna designs got away from them.
Looking at getting this antenna from solid signal to have so that way To get stations from different directions. https://www.solidsignal.com/antennas-d ... range-db8e maybe get two and Combine them to get more gain. Or jsut get another televes and put it on the roof up higher since I have the other positioned and in a bucket with a 9 foot poll.



ftballfan
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by ftballfan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:56 pm

hunterw wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:23 pm
Kennelly Heaviside wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:15 am
It appears that Televes uses dBi gain figures, which are 2.15 dBi higher than dBd. So you might want to take their gain figures taking that into consideration. I'm not sure how they are getting VHF High gain, even 5 dBi. It is good that they have a resonant VHF Low Folded Dipole. One person's review noted that the folded dipole "osculated". I don't know if this was a spellcheck error or not. I think he meant oscillating. Folded dipoles hum in the wind at a resonant audio freqeuncy, like a guitar or piano string.. That's why most antenna designs got away from them.
Looking at getting this antenna from solid signal to have so that way To get stations from different directions. https://www.solidsignal.com/antennas-d ... range-db8e maybe get two and Combine them to get more gain. Or jsut get another televes and put it on the roof up higher since I have the other positioned and in a bucket with a 9 foot poll.
I wonder if there was a "Manistee Special" back in the pre-cable days with (1980 affiliations in parentheses):
An antenna aimed east for WPBN 7 (NBC) and WWTV 9 (CBS)
An antenna aimed west for WBAY 2 (CBS), WFRV 5 (NBC), and WLUK 11 (ABC)
An antenna aimed southwest for WTMJ 4 (NBC), WITI 6 (CBS), WMVS 10 (PBS), and WISN 12 (ABC)
An antenna aimed southeast for WZZM 13 (ABC)
[Or one aimed south to get 4, 6, 10, 12, and 13]
Fun fact: In the CATV days, all of these stations were carried on cable in Manistee at one point with the exception of WITI and WISN



WC8KCY
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by WC8KCY » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:28 am

ftballfan wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:56 pm
hunterw wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:23 pm
Kennelly Heaviside wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:15 am
It appears that Televes uses dBi gain figures, which are 2.15 dBi higher than dBd. So you might want to take their gain figures taking that into consideration. I'm not sure how they are getting VHF High gain, even 5 dBi. It is good that they have a resonant VHF Low Folded Dipole. One person's review noted that the folded dipole "osculated". I don't know if this was a spellcheck error or not. I think he meant oscillating. Folded dipoles hum in the wind at a resonant audio freqeuncy, like a guitar or piano string.. That's why most antenna designs got away from them.
Looking at getting this antenna from solid signal to have so that way To get stations from different directions. https://www.solidsignal.com/antennas-d ... range-db8e maybe get two and Combine them to get more gain. Or jsut get another televes and put it on the roof up higher since I have the other positioned and in a bucket with a 9 foot poll.
I wonder if there was a "Manistee Special" back in the pre-cable days with (1980 affiliations in parentheses):
An antenna aimed east for WPBN 7 (NBC) and WWTV 9 (CBS)
An antenna aimed west for WBAY 2 (CBS), WFRV 5 (NBC), and WLUK 11 (ABC)
An antenna aimed southwest for WTMJ 4 (NBC), WITI 6 (CBS), WMVS 10 (PBS), and WISN 12 (ABC)
An antenna aimed southeast for WZZM 13 (ABC)
[Or one aimed south to get 4, 6, 10, 12, and 13]
Fun fact: In the CATV days, all of these stations were carried on cable in Manistee at one point with the exception of WITI and WISN
I recall seeing at least one old VHF outdoor antenna when walking around Manistee that was clearly a special: directive low-band (for 2 and 5 Green Bay) integrated with figure-8-pattern high band elements (for 7, 9, and 11).

There aren't many old UHF antennas to be seen though. I've wondered if people tried to pull in Milwaukee's 18 (then a regional superstation), 24 (independent by day/SelecTV at night), and 36 (PBS) back in the day. They were reliable nighttime catches for us in the Upper Peninsula near Rapid River and on the Garden Peninsula.



Kennelly Heaviside
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Re: Green Bay OTA TV reception from manistee

Post by Kennelly Heaviside » Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:45 am

Near Racine and Kenosha, there are many area specials that receive signals from both Milwaukee and Chicago.

As I recall, areas in Kent County and points NW, had antennas for 3 and 8, and another for 13, and secondarily for 2, 5, and 11 from Green Bay. In the Summer, it was almost normal for tropo to occur across Lake Michigan in the later evening hours. But that included Low VHF, High VHF, and analog signals.


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