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Rimshots

Discussion pertaining to the Tri-Cities, Flint, Mt. Pleasant, and Bad Axe
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SpartanAM
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Rimshots

Post by SpartanAM » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:48 pm

The Saginaw-Bay City-Midland-Flint market seems to have a large amount of rimshot signals.

1) Why are there so many?

2) Who does the best job at attempting to cover the entire market?

In my opinion, the better ones are WCEN, WMJO, and WKQZ and the worst has to be WOWE.


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Arthur Mometer
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Arthur Mometer » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:52 am

Blame the FCC for changing the rules all the time. Originally it was a contour and interference based allotment system on FM like on AM and NCE-FM. Then they came up with the distance separation requirements in the early 1960s. There were so many stations that were in the Detroit area, and twelve of the second adjacents to those were dedicated Class As, so many 3 kW stations were in adjacent markets, and fewer Class Bs. Also, there were many pre 1962 Class B and C stations outstate that precluded fully spaced allotments. To be a first adjacent, Class As had to be 65 miles away, Class Bs had to be 105 miles away. Canada kept the contour based system, and has been able to fit in good replacements for most AMs on FM by using reduced ERP, HAAT, and DAs. Section 73.213 was a bonanza for the pre 1962 stations, with short spacing zones, which allowed full Class B and C facilities and close to full Class B and C facilities. Docket 80-90 did nothing to fix the distance separation system, with many of the "rimshot" "drop ins" ending up in the middle of nowhere like you point out. In some cases, Docket 80-90 separations made it worse, as did 6 kW rules. Section 73.215 has been used to improve "rimshots" somewhat, but it is limited in what can be done. Also, the "First Local Service" policy has been used to prevent so called "move ins" which would have put much better signals over populated areas. Really, they ought to have done what Canada did long ago to put stations where they would serve more people. The rural areas would have still been able to have stations drop in like they have in Canada, using ERP, HAAT, and DAs, with right sized allotments for small towns. The only way to fix it now in the US would be with an expanded FM band. Then they persist with adding new classes like C4, which really do nothing to fix the system like the Canadian allotment system would allow automatically. The Table of Allotments and Distance Separation Requirements were supposed to "simplify" the FM rules, but they really have done nothing except make it more complicated. Still, allotments are made in the middle of nowhere while populated areas are often underserved by solid signals.
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Arthur Mometer
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Arthur Mometer » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:44 am

Regarding WCEN, they benefitted greatly from Section 73.213 toward the WCSX first adjacent and WTNR cochannel facilities. WKQZ is just barely fully spaced under Section 73.207 to WDRQ. It resulted from Docket 80-90 separations to move from a Class A on 93.5 to a Class C2 on 93.3.

WHNN (to WDVD and WMAX-FM), WKCQ (to WJLB), and WUGN (to WYCD) all used Section 73.213 and short spacing agreements to achieve full or close to full facilities for their Class. Newer (post 1962) stations didn't have those options.

Almost all severely short spaced stations were fully spaced under prior allotment rules. The facilities used usually low ERP and side mounted antennas on coowned AM towers, with HAAT in the 150-250 foot range. All classes were protected to the 1 mV/m F(50,50) contour, now generally called the 60 dBu contour. Commercial Class Bs were given 54 dBu de facto protection by the original Section 73.207 spacings. It was kind of sneaked in that way. Some of the spacings also exceeded that needed for contour protection by rounding the spacings up to the next 5 mile increment.

I'd say that grandfathered superpowered Class B (and grandfathered short spaced to WPZR) 86 kW/801 feet HAAT WIOG covers the whole Flint Saginaw Bay City Midland area best. However, If you look at fccdata.org and go to the advanced contour map, the 70 dBu contour reaches no part of the City of Flint. The original facility and the previous F(50,50) contour graph showed a small part of the Northern part of Flint did receive a 70 dBu signal. It is also not LOS to parts of Flint, particularly at ground level, but that's very common in even mildly hilly cities. Not sure what Longley Rice would show, but that's why for years they had to say "also serving Flint" in the TOH (and the :30 in the old days) ID. The rest of the cities were allowed in a triple ID, as was WHNN (Bay City Saginaw with the old M-15 facility) and others under old rules.
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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48125er
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Re: Rimshots

Post by 48125er » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:08 pm

If WIOG was any more south It would likely interfere with the contour of 102.7



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48125er
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Re: Rimshots

Post by 48125er » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:08 pm

If WIOG was any more south It would likely interfere with the contour of 102.7



Arthur Mometer
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Arthur Mometer » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:26 pm

48125er wrote:If WIOG was any more south It would likely interfere with the contour of 102.7
Well, if you looked at Longley Rice, the ridge extending from Brighton to Almont above 1000 feet AMSL would probably shield both from each other. But with IBOC on, WPZR at 50 kW DA/500 feet HAAT interferes a lot more to WIOG than the other way around. The terrain 20 miles either side of the ridge is 300-400 feet lower on average.


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jry
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Re: Rimshots

Post by jry » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:34 pm

I do wish that the Tri-Cities stations and the Flint stations did a better job over the whole area. It would be great to see the radio market combined and ranked the same as the TV.



ftballfan
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Re: Rimshots

Post by ftballfan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:14 pm

jry wrote:I do wish that the Tri-Cities stations and the Flint stations did a better job over the whole area. It would be great to see the radio market combined and ranked the same as the TV.
At least the Tri-Cities/Flint is really only two radio markets. The Traverse City-Cadillac TV market has at least five separate radio markets, only one of them being an official market.



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audiophile
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Re: Rimshots

Post by audiophile » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:07 pm

Arthur Mometer wrote:
48125er wrote:If WIOG was any more south It would likely interfere with the contour of 102.7
Well, if you looked at Longley Rice, the ridge extending from Brighton to Almont above 1000 feet AMSL would probably shield both from each other. But with IBOC on, WPZR at 50 kW DA/500 feet HAAT interferes a lot more to WIOG than the other way around. The terrain 20 miles either side of the ridge is 300-400 feet lower on average.
If a station was on the ridge would they be considered RidgeShots? :blink


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TheForce
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Re: Rimshots

Post by TheForce » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:11 pm

I am able to get WKQZ and WCEN here in Grayling. I have actually got WKQZ as far as Cadillac!



bmw
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Re: Rimshots

Post by bmw » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:28 pm

TheForce wrote:I am able to get WKQZ and WCEN here in Grayling. I have actually got WKQZ as far as Cadillac!
That is in-part due to WKQZ's luxury of being the only station in the entire state, both Upper and Lower Peninsula, broadcasting on the 93.3 frequency. Speaking of which, how did they get so lucky? That's quite remarkable that they are the only station, both full-power, and low-power, broadcasting on that frequency. 95.9 looks to be the only other frequency with that distinction, though they do have a 12kw station in Windsor.



Arthur Mometer
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:29 am

Part of WKQZ's good signal is that it starts out in an area of flat terrain. Then the terrain goes uphill toward West Branch, Houghton Lake, and Cadillac. Unless you are in a terrain hole, you hear it until you start going downhill or until you are well beyond the horizon and there is an earth curvature effect.

Many FM channels were not duplicated anywhere else in the state until Docket 80-90 stations started dropping in. Even many Class A channels were not duplicated nearby. Class As were also prevented by first adjacent Class Bs for a 65 mile radius, and Class Cs for a 105 mile radius. Consider that WWTV-FM 92.9 Cadillac as a Class C on the WWTV Channel 9 tower in the geographic center of the state precluded Class As on 92.7 for nearly 35,000 square miles. WNDU-FM South Bend precluded another fairly large area. The land area of the whole state is 58,216 square miles. Hence a station on 92.7 could be heard for many miles with a selective radio. Many stations signed off at 10 PM, 11 PM, or Midnight. After WCER-FM 92.7 Charlotte signed off, WDZZ 92.7 Flint could often be heard over most of the Lower Peninsula with a selective radio except where WWTV-FM/WKJF-FM was quite strong. It seems like even WWTV-FM/WKJF-FM signed off fairly early until the early 1980s. I observed WDZZ blaring into Grand Rapids, Big Rapids, and Charlevoix after WCER-FM/WMMQ signoff back in the early 1980s. It often came in well in most of SE Michigan until CJBX London and CJSP Leamington signed on.

Even WKJF-FM Cadillac was a regular near Detroit until WDRQ moved from the WJBK-TV tower with 20 kW/500 feet to the Oak Park tower, and the CFCO Chatham translator signed on, and WKJF-FM moved from the WWTV tower, and WLMI Grand Ledge signed on. I seem to remember hearing it on a wire dipole in the attic just 15 miles from WDRQ on a fairly regular basis on a Technics tuner in narrow selectivity mode.

WCEN-FM 94.5 used to be Class C with 16 kW from one of WCEN 1150's AM towers, yet it precluded that 35,000 square miles from a 94.3 allotment. Not until WCEN-FM became Class C1 was the Leland allotment even possible. Port Clinton, OH and Holland, MI cochannels precluded other large areas, along with second adjacents like Birmingham, MI. And of course there was the 94.3 in Chatham, ON which was vacant for many years. In those days, with a good radio and antenna, you could hear the station in NW Pennsylvania on 94.3 quite regularly. When the WLEL...WFCX Leland, MI station first signed on 94.3, you could also hear that from the original Class A and C3 facility and location, over much of Michigan. The directional antenna installed when it became Class C2 protecting WCEN-FM seemed to reduce the signal from what it was as a Class C3 toward Southern Lower Michigan.

Unless you have a really sophisticated antenna and tuner, you can't begin to hear all the signals that are still there but interfered with by other stations. I wonder if a method could be devised to cancel the IBOC sidebands from adjacent channels. Something like noise canceling techniques for audio headphones and motor noise.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

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syntheticexctasy
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Re: Rimshots

Post by syntheticexctasy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:23 am

bmw wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:28 pm
TheForce wrote:I am able to get WKQZ and WCEN here in Grayling. I have actually got WKQZ as far as Cadillac!
That is in-part due to WKQZ's luxury of being the only station in the entire state, both Upper and Lower Peninsula, broadcasting on the 93.3 frequency. Speaking of which, how did they get so lucky? That's quite remarkable that they are the only station, both full-power, and low-power, broadcasting on that frequency. 95.9 looks to be the only other frequency with that distinction, though they do have a 12kw station in Windsor.
I can attest to KQZ's awesome coverage - it covers most anything north and east of the US23 and I75 interchange. I've even heard it pretty well travelling I-69 out to Lansing. I often listen to WKQZ in the woods outside Mio and as far north as Hillman and Atlanta, but as soon as you get into town (where there's interference and height issues) you lose it. I don't have much experience west of 75, but I have heard of others over towards the west side of the state hearing it quite regularly.

You're not the only one who's noticed that they're alone in the state on that freq (aside from W227CG Grand rapids, but I don't think that counts LOL) If WDRQ didn't have IBOC, I suspect WKQZ would penetrate further south as well. They do pretty well with their 39kw.



Arthur Mometer
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Arthur Mometer » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:52 am

The interference between WHNN and WDVD and between WDRQ and WKQZ is between coowned stations. I realize that they think the larger market is more important and needs the subchannels to get around other rules like feeding translators. But really the IBOC interference models were based on fully spaced stations. I do give Cumulus credit for shutting sown the IBOC on WJR and WABC. It was a ridiculous situation. Other than the ID feature and the 50 kW directional signals like WFDF and WWJ having IBOC service well beyond any FM station, there is little that can be said for IBOC on AM.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

Ronaldski
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Re: Rimshots

Post by Ronaldski » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:53 am

So refreshing for an on topic thread!

I know its out of Bad Axe, but 102.1 WLEW booms all over north east MI as well.

I have heard wkqz while going over the Mackinac bridge, very well too.

Coverage maps
whnn https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?c ... =L&hours=U 100,000 watts
wkqz https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?c ... service=FM 39,000 watts
wcen https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?c ... service=FM 100,000 watts
wiog https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?c ... service=FM 86,000 watts
wlew https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?c ... service=FM 50,000 watts



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