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RePack Phase 8 started

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
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SolarMax
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by SolarMax » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm

This morning (Sun. 3/29) from WHNE on their Facebook page. It does appear like they're going to brand as "TV3"

GREAT NEWS!
WHNE was notified that the custom part arrived at the antenna company last Friday (about time!) and they're now doing the final testing on the entire antenna system. They are going to use expedited shipping to get the antenna to Detroit.
We have been really lucky to get the antenna install crew scheduled to start on Thursday.
There is rain in the forecast for the end of the week, but if the weather cooperates, we could have WHNE TV3 back on the air by Friday or Saturday!



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MWmetalhead
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:37 pm

That is indeed terrific news; I look forward to their return!

I enjoy the Get TV channel, and the Drive-In Movies channel has greatly improved in recent weeks.

By the way, I did crack out the $20 flat panel antenna from Amazon this morning. Other than WPXD's signal being stonger and WADL's signal being a bit weaker, I did not notice a major difference on various channels as compared to my $10 short rabbit ears/UHF loop combo. I still receive the same 47 channels. Neither antenna was successful in decoding WUDL.


Caroline Beasley is ruining WRIF. What a bitch!!!

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SolarMax
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by SolarMax » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:47 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:37 pm
Neither antenna was successful in decoding WUDL.
Nothing to see there, move along. :)



Splouge
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by Splouge » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:05 pm

WHNE's website says that FunRoads TV is coming to Elliott's old spot.



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The Constant Browser
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by The Constant Browser » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am

szmigiel wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:30 pm
WInds are picking up and I am starting to get Multi-Channel interference
Heavy on CW50 (RF34), WABL 28 (RF27) Pretty much unwatchable
A little on WYXZ 7 (RF 25) WDIV 4 (RF32) Watchable with a few skips
No issues with Fox 2 (RF7), WWJ 62 (RF21), PBS 56 (RF20), My20 (RF31)

Back when CW50 was on RF14 it use to be pretty rock solid, not so much since there move last year.

Once WHNE-LD comes back and I know if I need to change or modify my antenna. I may have to look into trying to get my antenna even higher over the tree line. Currently it is about 30 feet off the ground, I might need to try a chimney strap mount.

It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.



szmigiel
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by szmigiel » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:11 am

So when there are high winds CW50 is unwatchable for everyone OTA?

I know the interference was always worse the higher the RF channel. When I first mounted my antenna I didn't have it very high off the ground, and I would get bad interference on many of the channels that were RF 40 and up. Which was CBS, ABC, and NBC. On windy days it made watching college football on ABC (RF41) almost impossible to enjoy. So I mounted the antenna in it's current location, which is about 30' off the ground pointed directly south. Then I would only get interference during bad storms or high wind days. However since CW50 moved to RF 34 most of the time it is fine, but from time to time it just becomes unwatchable, it doesn't even have to be a storm or high winds.

ATSC 3.0 will improve reception and eliminate this issue, but will require a new tuner and is still a few years off, and a whole lot of shuffling and rescanning again.



static1701
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by static1701 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:00 am

After the changes, I have issues with WADL. Nothing has changed on my end but now the signal drops out. I use a 4 bay antenna with half of it pointed at WADL and the other half at Southfield. Seems like they could use more power or put their antenna where everyone else has theirs....



km1125
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by km1125 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:19 am

The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
szmigiel wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:30 pm
WInds are picking up and I am starting to get Multi-Channel interference
Heavy on CW50 (RF34), WABL 28 (RF27) Pretty much unwatchable
A little on WYXZ 7 (RF 25) WDIV 4 (RF32) Watchable with a few skips
No issues with Fox 2 (RF7), WWJ 62 (RF21), PBS 56 (RF20), My20 (RF31)

Back when CW50 was on RF14 it use to be pretty rock solid, not so much since there move last year.

Once WHNE-LD comes back and I know if I need to change or modify my antenna. I may have to look into trying to get my antenna even higher over the tree line. Currently it is about 30 feet off the ground, I might need to try a chimney strap mount.
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
are you saying the beam angle is changing? I dont know how much they sway, but that would make sense if you are already picking it up marginally.



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SolarMax
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by SolarMax » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:50 am

The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
WKBD's RF14 antenna was a side-mount, below the candelabra, 34 is up on the platform, so somewhat different environment.



innate-in-you
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:17 pm

km1125 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:19 am
The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
szmigiel wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:30 pm
WInds are picking up and I am starting to get Multi-Channel interference
Heavy on CW50 (RF34), WABL 28 (RF27) Pretty much unwatchable
A little on WYXZ 7 (RF 25) WDIV 4 (RF32) Watchable with a few skips
No issues with Fox 2 (RF7), WWJ 62 (RF21), PBS 56 (RF20), My20 (RF31)

Back when CW50 was on RF14 it use to be pretty rock solid, not so much since there move last year.

Once WHNE-LD comes back and I know if I need to change or modify my antenna. I may have to look into trying to get my antenna even higher over the tree line. Currently it is about 30 feet off the ground, I might need to try a chimney strap mount.
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
are you saying the beam angle is changing? I dont know how much they sway, but that would make sense if you are already picking it up marginally.
There would not be any significant change to the beam angle (unless the wind were so strong it bent the antenna, or its mounting.

The Problem is that an ATSC 1 receiver has to match the phase of the carrier of the transmitting station.

If a gust of wind can blow the top of the tower enough to move about 1m, ATSC receivers will lose the phase lock, especially at UHF.

Our first TV with DTV was a "Sylvania" (Funai) 27" CRT. One year, we were trying to watch the World Series, on a windy night. WJBK was on RF channel 58. The signal dropped quite frequently.



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SolarMax
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by SolarMax » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:47 pm

On its Facebook page, WHNE has photos of parts of their Ch.3 antenna, as it awaits mounting on the tower, hopefully soon. The piece they were waiting for was a power divider. Don't know why it had to come from Italy. Hope it works.



Jason Kragt
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by Jason Kragt » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:41 pm

The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
I also always assumed that signal issues on windy days were usually multipath. I know that 8VSB doesn't handle motion well, but didn't think tower sway was great enough impact. I assumed multipath from trees was the major culprit. Do you have an article describing this?

I live in a different market (Grand Rapids). WZPX's signal (RF21) was bouncing all over the place here last weekend, while everyone else was relatively stable. My receiving antenna was in the attic and insulated from the wind. If broadcast tower motion was the main cause, I would be concerned for the stability of that tower.



km1125
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by km1125 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:33 am

I find it hard to believe it's a phase thing relative to the motion of the antenna. Seems like the distance and speed the antenna could move relative to the frequency of the carrier and the modulation rate would be so great that the amount of phase disturbance would be insignificant. I was trying to run some calculations but don't think I understand the total relationships yet.

Thanks for the facebook link. Their tower and combiner are not was I was expecting! Interesting! Wish them luck on the work this week! Hoping the weather cooperates.



innate-in-you
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by innate-in-you » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:22 pm

Jason Kragt wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:41 pm
The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
I also always assumed that signal issues on windy days were usually multipath. I know that 8VSB doesn't handle motion well, but didn't think tower sway was great enough impact. I assumed multipath from trees was the major culprit. Do you have an article describing this?

I live in a different market (Grand Rapids). WZPX's signal (RF21) was bouncing all over the place here last weekend, while everyone else was relatively stable. My receiving antenna was in the attic and insulated from the wind. If broadcast tower motion was the main cause, I would be concerned for the stability of that tower.
To be sure, trees bring blown by wind can harm ATSC 1.0 DTV reception, if there are trees close to the receiving site. Swaying limbs may change the phase and amplitude of the received signal.

As a general rule, if your analog reception caused you picture to roll, or your color reception would fail and return frequently, your antenna would need to be in a place relatively free from obstructions to watch ATSC 1.0 at all.

People think of reception problems as low signal strength, though multipath (and especially dynamic multipath - signal conditions changing from one second to another) are generally at fault.



innate-in-you
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Re: RePack Phase 8 started

Post by innate-in-you » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:23 pm

Jason Kragt wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:41 pm
The Constant Browser wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:27 am
It’s not multi path, but actually the top of the tower swaying in the wind. It’s the same as if you were moving you receiving antenna around by several feet. When WKBD was on 14 they were on the lowest UHF channel (longest wavelength) so the effect would be noticed the least.
I also always assumed that signal issues on windy days were usually multipath. I know that 8VSB doesn't handle motion well, but didn't think tower sway was great enough impact. I assumed multipath from trees was the major culprit. Do you have an article describing this?

I live in a different market (Grand Rapids). WZPX's signal (RF21) was bouncing all over the place here last weekend, while everyone else was relatively stable. My receiving antenna was in the attic and insulated from the wind. If broadcast tower motion was the main cause, I would be concerned for the stability of that tower.
To be sure, trees bring blown by wind can harm ATSC 1.0 DTV reception, if there are trees close to the receiving site. Swaying limbs may change the phase and amplitude of the received signal.

As a general rule, if your analog reception caused you picture to roll, or your color reception would fail and return frequently, your antenna would need to be in a place relatively free from obstructions to watch ATSC 1.0 at all.

People think of reception problems as low signal strength, though multipath (and especially dynamic multipath - signal conditions changing from one second to another) are generally at fault.



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