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Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
CK-722
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:27 pm

Ben Zonia wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:49 pm
Can they get an STA and borrowed equipment to experiment with ATSC 3.0 on Channel 3? Like WKAR-TV's ATSC 3.0 operation?
I volunteer to do studies on a Channel 3 ATSC 3.0 signal, if they give me a TV with ATSC 3.0 or a converter. Seriously. Contact me if you are interested. I'm about 15 miles from the WWJ-TV tower.

I'm thinking of putting up a small tower with a Winegard 7698 on a rotator, and could also mount a VHF-Low antenna on it. Come to think of it, I have an Archer 7 element VHF V-Log in the attic that I could use. It's oriented toward WJBK-TV 7 (2) and the antenna farm. Works well.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:56 pm

Ben Zonia wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:22 pm
MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:52 pm

Depending on antenna orientation, there would also be diagonally shaped silver or yellow lines zipping across the screen at all times on VHF 3.
I think the diagonal lines would only be in analog. Whether what caused the diagonal lines would disrupt the digital picture transmission in some way, I don't know.
It would cause digital glitching



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:58 pm

CK-722 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:27 pm
Ben Zonia wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:49 pm
Can they get an STA and borrowed equipment to experiment with ATSC 3.0 on Channel 3? Like WKAR-TV's ATSC 3.0 operation?
I volunteer to do studies on a Channel 3 ATSC 3.0 signal, if they give me a TV with ATSC 3.0 or a converter. Seriously. Contact me if you are interested. I'm about 15 miles from the WWJ-TV tower.

I'm thinking of putting up a small tower with a Winegard 7698 on a rotator, and could also mount a VHF-Low antenna on it. Come to think of it, I have an Archer 7 element VHF V-Log in the attic that I could use. It's oriented toward WJBK-TV 7 (2) and the antenna farm. Works well.
You could buy an ATSC 3.0 converter from South Korea, they already are being made there



CK-722
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:07 pm

It would cause digital glitching.

With ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 or both?


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

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CK-722
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:08 pm

It would cause digital glitching.
With ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 or both?

What causes it? I heard 72-76 MHz transmissions. Could a channel/band reject filter get rid of that? You'd think Comcast would have saved them rather than put them in a landfill.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:19 pm

CK-722 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:08 pm
It would cause digital glitching.
With ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 or both?

What causes it? I heard 72-76 MHz transmissions. Could a channel/band reject filter get rid of that? You'd think Comcast would have saved them rather than put them in a landfill.
Both I guess, I don't know much about 3.0 though



YpsiGuy
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by YpsiGuy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:31 pm

I'd love to see WHNE go to full power on channel 3. Be loud and proud, baby!

Being full power would attract more digital subchannels for them at conventions.



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:05 pm

YpsiGuy wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:31 pm
I'd love to see WHNE go to full power on channel 3. Be loud and proud, baby!

Being full power would attract more digital subchannels for them at conventions.
I don't think they can convert to a full power license. They could try to run at an ERP of a full power low VHF station, as they have applied to do, but there will always be an "-LD" at the end of their callsign and they will always have a low power license.



Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:01 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:49 pm
Go to govregs.com
Go to §73.623
Find the first table, first category on table is D/U Ratio.......Co-channel", third line reads "DTV into DTV......+15".

Strange suprise LII seems to have either left the table out of their site, or my smartphone could not open the table.

I am quite sure that the co-channel D/U r.atio is not 1:1.
Wait, does that +15 part mean that the other station is protected from co-channel interference as far out as its 34.85 dBu contour (the result of 41-(41*.15))? Because if that is the case, this might actually be do-able. I was under the impression that meant the 26 dBu contour was protected.

I think it's the 34.85 dBu situation, because WLPC and WSYM are both moving to 28, and WLPC just barely doesn't touch WSYM's 34.85 dBu contour, but is deep in its 26 dBu contour.



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Trip
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Trip » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:04 am

TV stations are not protected by contour analysis like FMs are, they are protected by a statistical analysis of coverage and interference within their protected contours.

https://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/oet/ ... /oet69.pdf

That is the FCC document explaining how it works in depth, but a short version:

Each station's coverage area inside its contour is broken up into "cells" that are individually evaluated for coverage and interference using Longley-Rice. If the population within the cells that receive interference adds up to more than 0.5% of the total population that would receive the protected station without that proposed station (for full-power and Class A; it's 2% for LPTV), then it is not acceptable to the FCC. Stations can opt to accept interference above those levels if they wish, though it would be unusual for a full-power to agree to accept interference from an LPTV station it does not also own.

And yes, the D/U ratio is 15 dB, but there's an adjustment factor in weak signal areas, among other things, that come into play.

To a few other comments that caught my eye:

RabbitEars shows 41* dBu contours for every UHF station, but the FCC only protects LPTV and Class A stations to 51* dBu. Full powers are protected to 41* dBu. (* It's 41 or 51 dBu with a frequency-specific adjustment factor; see OET Bulletin 69 linked above. VHF contours also vary between full-power and Class A/LPTV, but do not have a frequency-specific adjustment factor.)

The top available channel is 36. During the repacking process, no station in Canada was assigned to channel 36, but that channel was assigned to US stations.

WPVI ultimately chose channel 6 after fighting for a UHF channel, losing that fight, and being unable to find another channel in UHF or high-VHF. I'm further not sure why the station would be called "WTVI", as WTVI is a PBS station in North Carolina.

- Trip


N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

CK-722
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:58 am

"WTVI" refers to an old amateur radio term when hams mainly used HF bands exclusively and not VHF bands. Strong nearby HF ham signals would be picked up by the front end of TV receivers and the harmonics would interfere with usually VHF TV stations, often TV Channels 2-4 (7 X 8 = 56 MHz, 14 X 4 =56 Mhz, 21 X 3= 66 MHz, 28 X 2 =56 MHz, etc.) (Of course, 50-54 MHz caused adjacent channel interference to Channel 2.) The HF ham signals could be clean, without harmonics, and the receivers would still have RI interference. Thus "TVI" was the acronym for Television Interference FROM hams. WPVI was particularly proactive (often very contentious) in trying to prevent NCE-FMs within its service area, with interference TO Channel 6. There's a whole convouluted section of FCC FM Rules dedicated to Channel 6 Interference. When digital Channel 6 was assigned to WPVI, it caused interference TO those NCE-FMs that had managed to get on the air despite protests from WPVI. Because of the alliterative similarity of P to T, it was only natural that interference to NCE-FMs would result in the moniker "WTVI", even though it is interference FROM a TV station, not TO a TV station.

Hence, WTVI.

Also, the F(50,50), F(50,10), F(50,90), and all other combinations ARE Statistical treatments. Longley Rice just takes a lot of other factors into consideration. The F(L,T) curves are essentially a truncated version of signal prediction theory. They break down when you don't have quite flat terrain. When TV was mainly centered in "Coastal" type areas at it's inception, there tended to be several miles inland of quite flat terrain. It wasn't until suburbanization into hilly areas and TV development in "flyover country" that the early simpler field intensity prediction models were found to be increasingly inadequate. The big early exception was Los Angeles, which was "solved" for the time being by locating the TLs on Mt. Wilson. But then there's those pesky canyons. Cable "solved" many of these problems, but with the ever increasing costs, TV antennas are the new rage.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

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Mega Hertz
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Mega Hertz » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:35 pm

Because I said so, that's why.


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SolarMax
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by SolarMax » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:27 pm

CK-722 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:58 am
"WTVI" refers to an old amateur radio term when hams mainly used HF bands exclusively and not VHF bands.
Been licensed since 1961, had never seen nor heard the term "WTVI." 8o
Used to get accused of TVI (never my fault, seriously), and never considered operating 6M from Detroit area until WJBK moved off of RF2.



CK-722
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Nobody gets that it is partly a play on their call letters? It was WPVI, sounds like WTVI, and WPVI is a digital television station, that causes Television Interference to NCE-FMs next to it on the dial, at least on inexpensive radios, where WPVI raises the noise floor and effectively reduces sensitivity.

I have a neighbor who was getting the amateur behind her on some kitchen appliance. She thought he could hear her too. I had to reassure her that he couldn't hear her. He uses AM on 80 meters from time to time, so he was clear as a bell.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

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