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Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
CK-722
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Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:55 am

The Hudson Tower, by any other name, but not to be confused with the Hudson Lookout Tower, an antenna farm area some 240 miles North, has been proposed to be 912 feet AGL to the roof near the corner of Woodward and Gratiot. No doubt that there will also be a ~100 foot communications tower or two on top of it. Between all the convoluted FCC requirements, it may be not be able to be used for all FM and TV transmitters in the area. But what stations might diplex up there? Will it be beneficial?
Last edited by CK-722 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:29 am, edited 3 times in total.


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Art Van Damme
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction)

Post by Art Van Damme » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:15 pm

It’s going to affect WDTW and WMXD on the Cadillac Tower. To what degree and how, I cannot speculate.



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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction)

Post by RingtailedFox » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm

It might also affect anyone that broadcasts or recieves from the Penobscot Building or Renaissance Center, too...


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction)

Post by CK-722 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:47 am

Unless the FCC were to allow short spaced stations to agree to full nondirectonal facilities for class again under a revised Section 73.213, WMXD would still have to be directional. As such, it would need a separate antenna. WDET, WDTW, and WGPR could probably multiplex on a single broadband nondirectional antenna, as they are all presently very close to the Hudson Tower Site. The grandfathering of WDET and WDTW ERP might present challenges to be preserved due to slight TL moves, but this would be offset by the unobstructed Line of Sight and lack of reflections off other buildings.

Other fairly nearby stations that might be able to be relocated include WJLB, WDZH, WNIC, and WMUZ. Each would have to be evaluated to see if full spacing or permitted short spacing is possible. In some cases, near full Class B nondirectional short spaced facilities might be possible.

Other stations that were formerly located in the nearby vicinity include WRCJ, WDVD, WYCD, WMGC, and WDMK. Each station has a little bit different situation. WRCJ, WDVD, WYCD, and WDMK short spacings to the North and West would be lessened. WRCJ and WDMK might be able to lessen directional antenna requirements.

Owners of the present towers these stations occupy probably need to get out ahead of the planning.

Assuming that the HAAT at the Hudson Tower was 305 meters, the standard ERP would be about 12000 watts. The reduced ERP would help also in protecting short spaced stations, and in meeting Radio Frequency Electromagnetic Radiation requirements. Closely spaced bays could be used to limit downward radiation, and the lower ERP would make for smaller antenna apertures.

The remaining stations, WDRQ, WKQI, WRIF, WDKL and WOMC, are either grandfathered with very high ERPs or ERP/HAAT combinations, or have Cleveland area cochannel stations that might continue to require DAs. They probably should stay put.

Existing facilities in the Southfield Oak Park Royal Oak Township Antenna Farm could be repurposed as Auxiliary facilities.

RITOIE would seem to be a problem at first glance, however, third order products would actually fall on other collocated frequencies and be captured by the stronger evenly spaced signal, and all collocated stations would have nearly the same field intensity rather than a large disparity where the weaker signals are captured. Translators would fall halfway between RITOIE products of full power FMs, and would be relatively unaffected.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by SolarMax » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:29 am

WRCJ's transmitter was formerly at Lawton and Joy Road, not really near downtown (studio origination, not transmitter, is at Woodward/Selden). The transmitter and antenna moved in 2016 or 2017 to the American Tower site on 8 Mile at Meyers, so they are not part of this discussion. WGPR FM is at Woodward and Putnam, WDET is at Canfield and Cass, about two miles from the Hudson site. Since they are both to the north/northwest of the new construction, seems doubtful that their coverage areas would be adversely affected or require adjustment.



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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:58 am

SolarMax wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:29 am
WRCJ's transmitter was formerly at Lawton and Joy Road, not really near downtown (studio origination, not transmitter, is at Woodward/Selden). The transmitter and antenna moved in 2016 or 2017 to the American Tower site on 8 Mile at Meyers, so they are not part of this discussion. WGPR FM is at Woodward and Putnam, WDET is at Canfield and Cass, about two miles from the Hudson site. Since they are both to the north/northwest of the new construction, seems doubtful that their coverage areas would be adversely affected or require adjustment.
Well, seeing that the rest of the people on this board are always so quick and proactive and enthusiastic about huqe renovation projects like this, I just thought I would get in on the "ground floor", so to speak, before anyone else does. I'm not done though. I have a lot of other "projects" state wide to attend to. My hope is that every manager spends the rest of the day on the phone with this one, with breathless excitement, and lets the troops just do their jobs. Your bullet missed my trial balloon though. But until we actually see steel going up ABOVE the ground, I wouldn't worry about it.

Keep in mind that usually, it's the young troops here on the message board who get all excited about a three track change in the direction of a station playlist, and start excitedly calling Art Vuolo and Mike Austerman and Mark W and Del and Dave Carr and the trades about a "format change", like I did when I was young.


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CK-722
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:49 pm

When I said "nearby", I meant compared to North of Eight Mile. None of the four listed are much above what would be called 5 Mile Rd. if extended. The ones that moved out from the Downtown and New Center general area were also similarly close. WJLB, in Highland Park, is the furthest North "outlier" of the nine described sites. I think WJZZ was on Forest. I think WQRS was at or near the WWWW site. WJR-FM was on the Fisher Building. I'll double check, including WABX also. Its all there on the History Cards.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by Ed Joseph » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:03 pm

I guess the point of interest is whether any real coverage increase, with the millions it would cost, would actually be worth spending those millions for a few more miles of city grade contour. Stations can't afford to spend money on decent programming, so why would they spend it on facilities?


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:33 pm

OK, WQRS/WMGC was on the Book Building, and WWWW/WDTW, wasn't it once called by another name? Far to walk, but just a few blocks as the crow flies. Update: The building that WWWW/WDTW and WMXD are on is called the Cadillac Tower.

Sections 73.207, 73.213, 73.215, and 73.333, Canadian and Lake Erie overlap excluded, I think it could be done. But if they are putting up a building that size, perhaps the revenues could follow, Ed J.? I am also waiting for the Flint Renaissance, and don't laugh, things like this are happening worldwide. The water is fine now, except for isolated pockets, and they are using the new Karegnondi Pipeline in the Northern part of Genesee County. And I'm not carrying, so you don't need to fear!

Granted, I'm lost in the City of Detroit, but I have online software that's pretty good, hardware and software that I plan to update, excellent maps and satellite views.

It's just an exercise for my mind at the very least.
Last edited by CK-722 on Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by Marcus » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:42 pm

WMXD, WDRQ, and WYCD could share a directional antenna that protects Cleveland and covers Metro Detroit quite well. I could see WJLB, WDZH, WNIC, and WGPR wanting the additional height too. If WMUZ moves further East there is a risk of more interference to a couple of Canadian radio stations.



CK-722
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:35 pm

With 12 kW at 305 meters/~1000 feet HAAT, the F(50,10) interfering contours actually pull in from the F(50,10) 50 kW at 150 meters/~500 feet HAAT interfering contours. Between that and the fact that second and third adjacent allotments across the border are negotiable, I don't think that Canadian allotments would be much of a problem. Some of the allotments on the Cyanide Tower (CN :blink ) are actually Class C1 100 kW/300 meter HAAT allotments, and already accept interference in some cases, the domestic rules in Canada generally being much more flexible than the US domestic rules. Except for those (beep) CanCon rules.

DA requirements are often considerably different between stations, so a single DA compromise might not be an ideal choice, even if the antenna is broadband. The pattern varies with frequency. With all the goofing around with analog and digital TV stations, a single broadband UHF transmitting antenna was often used in the transition period for widely spaced channels, but that was often not ideal either, and there were considerably different patterns at the two (sometimes more) channels.


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CK-722
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:51 pm

I just used Section 73.333 F(50,10) Graphs to see how the 34 dBu F(50,10) distance is affected. The 34 dBu goes out 172 km with 50 kW/150 meters HAAT, and 155 km with 12.5 kW/300 meters HAAT. So the 34 dBu F(50,10) pulls in about 17 km/10.5 miles. Under the Treaty Agreement With Canada, if WMUZ moved East as much as 10 miles, the interfering contour wouldn't go any further than it does now. And it wouldn't need protection over Canadian land. Or Lake Erie.

For first adjacent channels.

The 48 dBu F(50,10) goes out 99 km with 50 kW/150 meters HAAT.
The 48 dBu F(50,10) goes out 96 km with 12.5 kW/300 meters HAAT.

So it pulls in the contour about two miles.
Last edited by CK-722 on Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by MWmetalhead » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:14 pm

Might it make sense for stations already located in midtown or downtown to co-locate on Hudson Tower (if it ever gets built)? Perhaps.

However, I'd say there's zero chance of any full power station's TX site moving from southern Oakland County to downtown Detroit. I even think it'd be a reach for a station to leave a NW Detroit site to relocate downtown.

Downtown-based stations have noticeably weaker reception in northern Oakland and Livingston Counties than those located in Oak Park or Southfield. No one is going to want to sacrifice coverage in the aforementioned regions for a stronger Essex County, ON or downriver signal.

Let's look at the stations that transmit from Wayne County:
- Mix 92.3: focused on African Americans, so it makes sense for them to TX from downtown.
- WJLB: focused on African Americans, so the NW Detroit TX location works well for them.
- 98.7 The Breeze: ratings stunk under the prior format; lousy signal in Livingston County.
- 100.3 WNIC: this is the one & only Wayne County-based FM station with strong ratings among non-African American listeners. A consistent format & branding - other than a two year interruption - over several decades helps explain the success.
- 101.9 WDET: terrible ratings; almost always gets defeated by WUOM.
- 103.5 WMUZ: niche station whose success doesn't depend heavily on ratings.
- 106.7 WDTW-FM: other than brief periods of good ratings, the ratings over the past twenty years have largely been mediocre to terrible.
- 107.5 WGPR: see WJLB. (Simply replace the NW Detroit reference with midtown Detroit.)


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CK-722
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:08 pm

I don't know of a single city with a building of that size, circa 1000 feet, being built, that would be the tallest in that city, that has NOT ended up with a lot of the FM and or TV stations relocating to the taller tower.

When they built the Hancock Center in Chicago, which the two towers on the top were about 1107 feet AGL, the FMs and TVs clamored to be on it. Except WLS-TV 7, which said they were going to remain on Marina City, at 893 feet AGL, and that they were satisfied with their service from there. They then had all kinds of reflection problems off Hancock, as it's not just signal "blockage", it provides another path at every location to interfere with the direct path. But WLS having the heritage of past Sears ownership, may have had inside information that the Sears Tower was going to be built. After that was built, WLS-TV promptly moved to the considerably taller Sears Tower.

As the FCC signal prediction model used is woefully inadequate by today's standards, there may be other factors which would make all the locations have a better signal from the higher HAAT within the general LOS area, and easily predictable with new models. When you are "eight miles high", "moving eight miles a minute", ERP is definitely the deciding factor for signal strength and reliability.

Your best speculation is definitely whether the building is actually going to be built.

You might notice that none of the center city TLs mentioned are at more than around 600 feet HAAT, whereas the SF-OP-ROT towers are taller. The highest FM HAAT out there is around 1000 feet AGL.

I was always told, "never say never".
Last edited by CK-722 on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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CK-722
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Re: Hudson Tower (Building Under Construction) & Initial FM Collocation Analysis

Post by CK-722 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:16 pm



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Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

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