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WPON WCXI Updates - 2019

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
SixPlusOne
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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by SixPlusOne » Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:23 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:38 pm
The clowns at WPON were just fined $18,000 by the FCC.

https://radioinsight.com/headlines/1730 ... -activity/.
Arthur give us your take/comment on this supplied by MWmetalhead:

Birach Broadcasting’s 1460 WPON Walled Lake MI has been issued an $18,000 fine for “willfull and repeated operation of the Station at variance from its license”, “willfully failed to timely file for special temporary authorization to operate with its nonconforming technical facilities”, and “willfully failed to disclose material information regarding the unauthorized operations”. As part of its 2012 license renewal application, the station’s license will only be granted a one year renewal.



Arthur Mometer
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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:23 pm

WCXI 1160 with 10 kW with same Pattern as WYLL Lockport Night facility.

23 miles North

If conductivity is 4 mS/m measured, 6.7 mV/m at SE corner of Grand Blanc Township.

If conductivity is 2 mS/m measured, 3.4 mV/m at SE corner of Grand Blanc Township.

30 miles North in Burton near WCRZ tower

4 mS/m 3.9 mV/m

2 mS/m 1.9 mV/m

If you believe in a literal Santa Claus and M-3 Conductivity Maps, it would be much higher.


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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 pm

SixPlusOne wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:23 pm
MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:38 pm
The clowns at WPON were just fined $18,000 by the FCC.

https://radioinsight.com/headlines/1730 ... -activity/.
Arthur give us your take/comment on this supplied by MWmetalhead:

Birach Broadcasting’s 1460 WPON Walled Lake MI has been issued an $18,000 fine for “willfull and repeated operation of the Station at variance from its license”, “willfully failed to timely file for special temporary authorization to operate with its nonconforming technical facilities”, and “willfully failed to disclose material information regarding the unauthorized operations”. As part of its 2012 license renewal application, the station’s license will only be granted a one year renewal.
I am thirty miles East of the new WPON WCXI site, and can barely hear WPON on a GE SuperRadio II when it is on. In CH, I hear WBRN, WKAM, and WBNS, even when it is on. Either it is not running 250 watts, or the conductivity is really bad at the site, in my humble opinion. It would be nice to know which, as it might give the owner or potential buyer an idea of how to proceed.


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innate-in-you
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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:02 am

Arthur Mometer wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:23 pm
WCXI 1160 with 10 kW with same Pattern as WYLL Lockport Night facility.

23 miles North

If conductivity is 4 mS/m measured, 6.7 mV/m at SE corner of Grand Blanc Township.

If conductivity is 2 mS/m measured, 3.4 mV/m at SE corner of Grand Blanc Township.

30 miles North in Burton near WCRZ tower

4 mS/m 3.9 mV/m

2 mS/m 1.9 mV/m

If you believe in a literal Santa Claus and M-3 Conductivity Maps, it would be much higher.
Nice work, but WCXI's new array will/would have been nothing like WYLL's nighttime array, rather more like WMVP's daytime array, and be 15kW, not 10.

If built (and I strongly believe it will be, as the towers are already in place), the measure of its potential would be its field strength at Hall Road (M-59) and Gratiot.

Unlike so many Metro Detroit AMs, the daytime signal to the east will actually be carrying over households with money.

The best measure of its potential would be its field strength at Hall Road (M-59) and Gratiot. That far east, conductivity is not much less than the "official" 8mS/m figure. The question is just how much signal is lost before it can past Dequindre.

Nighttime is another matter. When WFEN came on air in 1986, it had only KSL to protect, and, once WJJD's limited hours ended as the sun set over KSL every evening, very little interference. Now there's a ton of RF on 1160, and the new array only allows 220 watts.

Getting an FM translator would be pivotal.



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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:48 am

I have done a lot of investigation of this. Many of the studies are online. WYLL is the most restrictive requirement, even more than KSL because of the proximity. The NIF of WYLL is fairly low despite KSL interference, because it is a long ways away. You need to protect the whole 0.5 mV/m 50% skywave contour of KSL in the US. What they want to serve and what they can serve are completely different things. For one, they can't increase much if any to the East and South, because there are now a lot of stations in those directions on 1160. And there is the skywave of WWVA to consider also. You'll see it in the Night studies online. I will post all the relevant ones over the next few days. The pattern would most closely resemble the WYLL Night Pattern. Not exactly, but close. Because of the WYLL restrictions and the Standard Pattern, only about 10 kW would be feasible. The WPON Night array, combined with another row of three in the general Eastern direction about 180 degrees, and steered with phasing to make North the maximum. Some of the protections may change with new proposed rules, but they haven't fully taken effect though, or there would be a ton of applications. I know of one that is going to apply right out of the gate. Salem and WYLL would challenge any clipping of their protected Nighttime Groundwave.

If you have any specifics to challenge, I will investigate further.

If Hall Rd. and Gratiot is where you want to go at Night, you may want to look at the 270 radial that Munn Reese did for WUFL Proof of Performance in 1988 on the more recent three tower application online, and the WMVP Day application which shows the ~20 degree radial of WDEO Proof of Performance. Where those two radials cross, they both show 4 mS/m conductivity.

There is no way they could radiate anywhere near 15 kW directional in the direction of Hall and Gratiot at Night, without removing a lot of other stations. Reversing Munn Reese's radial might give you an idea what the Day signal would be in that general area. But it starts out as 4 according to two POPs run by them. As I recall, it starts to go down near the old WPON site near Square Lake and Telegraph, which is where the soil really starts to change from Clay to Sand, Gravel and Stones if you look at Quaternary Geological Maps. That is one reason why four of the six Detroit AMs have moved from Oakland County, WJR from Sylvan Lake, WWJ from 8 Mile and Meyers, WCAR...WDFN from Square Lake and Telegraph, and WXYZ...WXYT from 20777 10 Mile Rd. Yes, I know there are several other reasons.

If WPON is operating according to the STL parameters of 250 watts nondirectional on 1460, it can't be more than 4 mS/m equivalent over the whole 30 mile path to my RL. I doubt if that direction is as good as 1988 due to all the development within ~10-15 miles of WUFL's site.

The soil in NW Oakland County is similar to the soil in Northern Lower Michigan, perhaps not as extreme, but probably a half dozen or more applications online show radials in the 0.1-3 mS/m range where M-3 shows 8 mS/m. WTCM, WCCW, and WMKT, using measured radials of WKZO, extended POP radials of WOOD, WION, and WKPR are a few to look at. I will say that I believe these areas really are bad for AM, noticing from the time I was a little kid that the AM stations in Northern and Western Michigan didn't get out well at all compared to Major Cities in SE Michigan. 5 kW WHAK vs. 5 kW WWJ is one good example. 5 kW WHGR vs. 1 kW WXOX, 5 kW WXYZ, 1 kW WFYC, and even 0.5 kW WOIB...WLBY are other examples.

The existing CP for WCXI at Night will have to be modified for Class B, as at 215 watts it is now over the Class B threshold. You are correct that it is a ~cardioid pointed East, but with that pattern and changes in rules, not much more than the ~1 kW close to the Licensed WCXI 1 kW would be possible with the existing CP two tower array.
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

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"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

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About Those Translators

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:18 am

Oh, about those translators. There is no way even a 250 watt translator, even nondirectional, even on those Royal Oak Township antenna farm towers, can serve Detroit Metro adequately. Thats why the full power FMs are somewhere in the 50-100 kW from 500 feet equivalent range, as grandfathered. There are so many signal holes and cochannels in the US and Canada, that AM stations like WDTW, WDTK, and WLQV are much easier to listen to in a moving car than the FM translators are.
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:19 pm

Right out of the box, the proposed WCXI Night pattern is barely under the permissible radiation toward WYLL with 215 watts. They'd have to change the pattern and reduce the back lobe toward WYLL just to get back to ~1 kW to apply for Class B facilities that don't cover Fenton, the COL, with the required NIF, under proposed new rules. That part is apparently in force, since WPON applied for 580 watts with an NIF that doesn't cover Walled Lake.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=1

Description of Proposed WCXI Site

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=1

WUFL 270 Degree Radial. That site is at the Latitude equivalent to 18 1/2 Mile Road. The WPON WCXI site is at the Latitude equivalent to 15 1/2 Mile Road. So it's pretty close to the 270 degree radial, about 265 degrees. Plus the WDEO radial goes near there from the South. One of my next projects is to reverse that radial. If you look at the curve matching to the points along the 6 mS/m part near the West end, it's closer to 4 or 5 than 6. I'm going to break that radial section into two. I use the old graphs in miles form the 1960 NAB Engineering Handbook to map the radial out to road maps.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=2

Here's the Michigan Quaternary Geology Map. The County Maps from MSU have been moved or are no longer available. Except for the annoying red striation lines, this is basically the same map. If you look, the extreme SE corner is light blue and darker blue, then you get into the sandier gravelly region around SQRLK and Telegraph. The major ski areas of Oakland County are pink (0.1 to 1 on CDBS Apps), like Roscommon County and Southern Otsego County. The NW corner of Oakland is a sort of olive, like Mecosta County (1.5 to 3 on Paper Apps Jack W. showed me). All of these reduced from M-3 prediction are supported by actual FI measurements across Oakland County to WCXI 1160, the old WSNL 600 and WFDF 910 (when properly maintained, consistently 128 uV/m in the Summer, it fell to 50 uV/m when they stopped maintaining it well before moving. Bill S. and Dan G. fixed it and replaced transmission lines before that, based on my reports, probably the last time it was extensively repaired) facilities, WTRX 1330, WFNT 1470, and WWCK (AM) 1570, that I made when Del and Ed C. loaned me FI meters for extended periods in the early 1990s. Thanks to them for that. Also very much below M-3 prediction was WXYT 1270 5 kW 20777 10 Mile location (2.4 mV/m Daytime). WWJ 950 5 kW from 8 Mile and Meyers in ROT (20 mV/m Daytime) was much closer to M-3 prediction.

The WMU site has been removed.

https://wmich.edu/sites/default/ilifile ... gy_Map.pdf

New link to original map.

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/Prodesc/proddesc_71889.htm
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:31 pm

Let's be honest, WCXI will be a de facto daytimer, the Hall/Gratiot signal strength will be significant to how well the 15kW signal will cover Oakland and Macomb counties during daytime. They could announce a stream site repeatedly to court nighttime listeners, but a lot of people find streaming inconvenient. Hooking my smart phone to my car audio input to listen to WGVU is a pain, and forget changing streams while driving. Thus an FM translator could help them (alas, I suspect there isn't more room for any new ones).

1983 was the year I became obsessed with learning about the radio business, after following the struggle, and, ultimately death, of 1430 WBRB, where I first heard a lot of great songs that were so old, they were new to me. I read all about directional arrays, C-Quam, ISB, critical hours, soil conductivity, et al.

I'll never forget the drive up north that summer, how 990 Clare dropped out so abruptly, and the tiny coverages of WATT and the old (1400) WTCM. And being AMazed again decades later listening to KAYS along 200 miles of I-70.



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Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:01 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:31 pm
Let's be honest, WCXI will be a de facto daytimer, the Hall/Gratiot signal strength will be significant to how well the 15kW signal will cover Oakland and Macomb counties during daytime. They could announce a stream site repeatedly to court nighttime listeners, but a lot of people find streaming inconvenient. Hooking my smart phone to my car audio input to listen to WGVU is a pain, and forget changing streams while driving. Thus an FM translator could help them (alas, I suspect there isn't more room for any new ones).

1983 was the year I became obsessed with learning about the radio business, after following the struggle, and, ultimately death, of 1430 WBRB, where I first heard a lot of great songs that were so old, they were new to me. I read all about directional arrays, C-Quam, ISB, critical hours, soil conductivity, et al.

I'll never forget the drive up north that summer, how 990 Clare dropped out so abruptly, and the tiny coverages of WATT and the old (1400) WTCM. And being AMazed again decades later listening to KAYS along 200 miles of I-70.
Well, let's look at the POPs for WPON if they are ever available.

I'm going to reverse that 270 radial, and you will see a fair estimate. Again, if you really want Hall Rd. and Gratiot, we're talking 50 kW power bills, not even 15 kW, IMHO, if you want to get into honesty. My RL is 30 miles, so that is probably around 35 miles. There is also a sandy area around the WUFL site, plus a lot of development, and the conductivity is reduced around that site if you look at that one link.


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SixPlusOne
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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by SixPlusOne » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:13 pm

Arthur Mometer wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 pm

I am thirty miles East of the new WPON WCXI site, and can barely hear WPON on a GE SuperRadio II when it is on. In CH, I hear WBRN, WKAM, and WBNS, even when it is on. Either it is not running 250 watts, or the conductivity is really bad at the site.
I am about 3 or 4 miles east from the site so I can get them if they're on however I haven't detected them on the air now for almost 3 weeks.



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Ed Joseph
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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm

Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.


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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Arthur Mometer » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:54 pm

Ed Joseph wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm
Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.
As far as I can tell, they are using the North Rd. site. Weren't you out there with the late great Don McComb as assistant CE and the late great Johnny Cole? And the late great Tom Knight who was murdered, reportedly so they could sell his record collection?

As far as format, I would go Foreign Language Days to Oakland Macomb Wayne, and Oldies Nights to Genesee County, with an optimal array at Night which would have to be North to have any power >~1kW. There's plenty of towers there, some might have to be moved around. Despite what somebody said here, they can't go much to the ESE Night like the old WJJD Night Pattern. Or just keep the North Rd. site for Nights. It's in wetlands next to Lake Ponemah aka Mud Lake, and I doubt that it could be sold soon. What part of Mud don't they understand? I don't know why they couldn't keep it for Studios either. Ernie Durham and Casey Kasem did similar daily treks before I-75, I-96, and the US-23 Expressway. US-23 was no big deal for Landecker either. It builds character and obviously success. And the list goes on and on. Bob Liggett, Joe Wade Formicola, Bob Burchett, and more. Bill Pearson's Oxford commute was nothing.

Also, Don McComb went from his home in Flushing to Saginaw, Lapeer, and Ypsilanti as I recall.


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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by innate-in-you » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm

Ed Joseph wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm
Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.
Of course, keep in mind that the FCC had (and still has) a preference for granting CPs to smaller communities that lack a local station, which, it is hoped, will provide a local service, allowing local advertisers to court customers, and serve as a medium for local discussion. This was the newer version of the program in the 1950s of encouraging the construction of an AM in every county seat, Class 4/C if a local channel frequency were available, Class D if not).

Problem came when people still preferred the stations from cities within their range, with more choices of formats and more polished presentation. Fenton had a good number of relatively strong signals before WFEN came along, and WFEN had to compete with all of them.

WFEN got its CP over WWHK (1430 Mt. Clemens, other times known as WBRB). WWHK also sought 1160 for a (IIRC) six-tower array beaming northward- giving better coverage of the Thumb than the Detroit metro area. WBRB was declined because Mt. Clemens was considered to be in the Detroit metro area, whereas Fenton was not.



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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:43 pm

I another thread, which disappeared in the attack, and on the WBRB History Card, the 3 original WBRB towers were at 44450 Hayes Rd., just South of the present day Lowes store. It is a wetland also, and was largely under water earlier this past week. The soil is clay there, and the water stays a long time on top compared to the sand just West of there.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/ ... r_id=50845

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Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 pm

Arthur Mometer wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:54 pm

As far as I can tell, they are using the North Rd. site. Weren't you out there with the late great Don McComb as assistant CE and the late great Johnny Cole? And the late great Tom Knight who was murdered, reportedly so they could sell his record collection?

As far as format, I would go Foreign Language Days to Oakland Macomb Wayne, and Oldies Nights to Genesee County, with an optimal array at Night which would have to be North to have any power >~1kW. There's plenty of towers there, some might have to be moved around. Despite what somebody said here, they can't go much to the ESE Night like the old WJJD Night Pattern. Or just keep the North Rd. site for Nights. It's in wetlands next to Lake Ponemah aka Mud Lake, and I doubt that it could be sold soon. What part of Mud don't they understand? I don't know why they couldn't keep it for Studios either. Ernie Durham and Casey Kasem did similar daily treks before I-75, I-96, and the US-23 Expressway. US-23 was no big deal for Landecker either. It builds character and obviously success. And the list goes on and on. Bob Liggett, Joe Wade Formicola, Bob Burchett, and more. Bill Pearson's Oxford commute was nothing.

Also, Don McComb went from his home in Flushing to Saginaw, Lapeer, and Ypsilanti as I recall.
In fact, I had met Tom Knight before he was involved with WACY, when I was still at WTRX and he was still "record librarian" for Liggett. It was actually Tom and I who came up with the "wacy" idea one night at his house listening to records. We approached then-WFEN owner Don Olmsted with an idea to program an oldies format into Flint. However, this never happened until Deano bought 1160. It was Tom who rattled that chain.

I actually stopped in the place way back when WFEN first went on, and adjusted their non-tweaked Optimod and corrected the phase of the audio. Station sounded a world and a half better when I left.

At one time, Don and I had like 4 or 5 stations we were chipping away at. I worked with Don right up until I went to work for the Big 3 in 1998 and even a few times after, while I was on layoff. I loved his house in Flushing. His basement was awesome. :)

He sure kept that Cavalier wagon going... WHNN, WIOG, WSGW, WMAX/WUNI, several stations in Flint, and even further north. Bear Lake, for one.


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