Acceptable registrations in the queue through March 16 at 11:00a ET have now been activated. Enjoy! -M.W.

Terms of Use have been amended effective October 6, 2019. Make sure you are aware of the new rules! Please visit this thread for details: https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... 16&t=48619

The Debt Limit..

Debate and discussion of current events and political issues across the U.S. and throughout the World. Be forewarned -- this forum is NOT for the intellectually weak or those of you with thin skins. Don't come crying to me if you become the subject of ridicule. **Board Administrator reserves the right to revoke posting privileges based on my sole discretion**
User avatar
Rate This
Posts: 13966
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:17 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by Rate This » Tue May 09, 2023 12:28 pm

audiophile wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 12:20 pm
Rate This wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 11:27 am
zzand wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 11:21 am
IMHO bypassing Congress would get him what he wants but may also cause fallout. What that fallout would be, above my paid grade, but it is possible. Everyone needs to grow up and work this out together. We do need to reign in spending and live within our means.
And the “debt limit” is not a way to do that. It puts a limit on spending congress has already passed. That would be akin to somebody looking at their credit limit, spending 80% of it and then the credit card company telling you that 75% of your limit is the limit and charging you for going over it. It makes no sense.
Not all money budgeted has been spent or has been contracted, so this is apples to oranges. Your credit bill is money already spent.
It’s money that has been appropriated for things. It’s not sitting around somewhere waiting for a rainy day. Every dollar there has a purpose in an item in the budget.



User avatar
TC Talks
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by TC Talks » Tue May 09, 2023 1:26 pm

Matt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:20 am
TC Talks wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:38 am
audiophile wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:29 am
Interesting perspective from Bob Hockett.

I just learned that 43 senators have signed on the McCathy's house bill, so that mean Biden should negotiate. There is simply not the votes without some bi-partisan activity. Had only 39 signed there was chance another bill could be passed in the Senate.
There is a majority of Democrats in the senate. The president shouldn't let this punk do anything but pound sand.
This from a poster who absolutely has NO IDEA how the government works.
No, it's from a poster who watched how the GOP did it when they were in the majority.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

Matt
Posts: 9853
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:18 pm
Location: Where Ben Zonia couldn't cut it

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by Matt » Tue May 09, 2023 1:37 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 1:26 pm
Matt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:20 am
TC Talks wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:38 am
audiophile wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:29 am
Interesting perspective from Bob Hockett.

I just learned that 43 senators have signed on the McCathy's house bill, so that mean Biden should negotiate. There is simply not the votes without some bi-partisan activity. Had only 39 signed there was chance another bill could be passed in the Senate.
There is a majority of Democrats in the senate. The president shouldn't let this punk do anything but pound sand.
This from a poster who absolutely has NO IDEA how the government works.
No, it's from a poster who watched how the GOP did it when they were in the majority.
Democrats aren't in the majority on both houses. It is a split government.


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

Matt
Posts: 9853
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:18 pm
Location: Where Ben Zonia couldn't cut it

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by Matt » Tue May 09, 2023 1:39 pm

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:19 am
May not be supported by the Constitution. A renowned legal professor, when asked if the executive branch could just invoke some form of the 14th Amendment and borrow more money.. said this.
Bob Hockett, Cornell Law School professor, when asked by Axios wrote:Because the national debt entailed by previous Congressional budgets is itself effectively legislated, Republicans House Members who sued would effectively be asking the courts to require the US to default on its own Congressionally contracted debts - a violation of contact law, constitutional law, and international law. There is no way the Supreme Court would grant this. Even the 'socially' conservative justices are nearly all of them economically moderate, at least where contractual debt obligations are concerned. Only Thomas, and MAYBE Coney Barrett, might - might - be sufficiently alien- minded to vindicate that. Worst- case scenario, then, is that Biden, the Senate, and House Dems win 6-3, while best-case scenario is they win 8-1 or even
9-0.
I agree that we need to curtail some fed govt. spending. Fuxking with the debt limit is not the right tool.
Congress has the power of the purse. Any mental gymnastics challenging the constitutionality of an enumerated power in the constitution is a waste of time.

/End initial topic of thread
Last edited by Matt on Tue May 09, 2023 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

Matt
Posts: 9853
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:18 pm
Location: Where Ben Zonia couldn't cut it

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by Matt » Tue May 09, 2023 1:52 pm

Round Six wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:45 am
Mutt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:20 am
This from a poster who absolutely has NO IDEA how the government works.
I also am not intimate with the inner workings of the government. So if this query sounds retarded, tell me so.

Pros and cons of a 2 percent cut of everything. Salaries, spending, everything. Everybody and everything.
I know it's overly simplistic. Tell me why.
Across the board cuts are never a good idea from an operational standpoint. I'd argue that they are lazy and sidestep prioritizing what is important to a business or government. Executive leadership should have some flexibility in deciding how to weather budgetary cutbacks.


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

User avatar
TC Talks
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by TC Talks » Tue May 09, 2023 2:07 pm

Matt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 1:37 pm
TC Talks wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 1:26 pm
Matt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:20 am
TC Talks wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:38 am
audiophile wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:29 am
Interesting perspective from Bob Hockett.

I just learned that 43 senators have signed on the McCathy's house bill, so that mean Biden should negotiate. There is simply not the votes without some bi-partisan activity. Had only 39 signed there was chance another bill could be passed in the Senate.
There is a majority of Democrats in the senate. The president shouldn't let this punk do anything but pound sand.
This from a poster who absolutely has NO IDEA how the government works.
No, it's from a poster who watched how the GOP did it when they were in the majority.
Democrats aren't in the majority on both houses. It is a split government.
And there are some moderate Republicans who know they have leverage here. Only the extremists would allow a default.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

User avatar
FakeAndyStuart
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:07 pm
Location: MOVED! Now residing in CurmudgeonLand

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by FakeAndyStuart » Thu May 11, 2023 5:54 am

Matt wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 1:39 pm
FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 8:19 am
May not be supported by the Constitution. A renowned legal professor, when asked if the executive branch could just invoke some form of the 14th Amendment and borrow more money.. said this.
Bob Hockett, Cornell Law School professor, when asked by Axios wrote:Because the national debt entailed by previous Congressional budgets is itself effectively legislated, Republicans House Members who sued would effectively be asking the courts to require the US to default on its own Congressionally contracted debts - a violation of contact law, constitutional law, and international law. There is no way the Supreme Court would grant this. Even the 'socially' conservative justices are nearly all of them economically moderate, at least where contractual debt obligations are concerned. Only Thomas, and MAYBE Coney Barrett, might - might - be sufficiently alien- minded to vindicate that. Worst- case scenario, then, is that Biden, the Senate, and House Dems win 6-3, while best-case scenario is they win 8-1 or even
9-0.
I agree that we need to curtail some fed govt. spending. Fuxking with the debt limit is not the right tool.
Congress has the power of the purse. Any mental gymnastics challenging the constitutionality of an enumerated power in the constitution is a waste of time.

/End initial topic of thread
Unfortunately, you cannot declare "Mission Accomplished" here my friend. Congress has the power to spend, but the Executive branch has the responsibility to pay the bills that Congress runs up. Does Congress have the unilateral right to charge a bunch of things and then not pay the bill when it comes? And don't gaslight anyone here - every dollar that has been spent up to today was authorized by those who have the "power of the purse". Again, I don't disagree with the premise of reducing the deficit, but you can't do it this way.



User avatar
MWmetalhead
Site Admin
Posts: 11873
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:23 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu May 11, 2023 6:21 am

Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
I disagree with that premise. A debt default could have disastrous consequences in terms of the capital markets, and people's 401K balances could tank. I think under such a scenario voters are more likely to blame Congress than the President.



bmw
Posts: 6727
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:02 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by bmw » Thu May 11, 2023 9:04 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 6:21 am
Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
I disagree with that premise. A debt default could have disastrous consequences in terms of the capital markets, and people's 401K balances could tank. I think under such a scenario voters are more likely to blame Congress than the President.
My point was that Republicans have already passed a bill and dug their heels in. It would be the act of digging their heels in and then caving at the last minute that would finish them as a party. I do agree that a lot of voters would blame Congress rather than the President, but only because the President is a Democrat and Republicans always get the blame for government shutdowns (and this type of blame I suspect would apply to a default).

As an aside, the House HAS passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling.



User avatar
audiophile
Posts: 8546
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Between 88 and 108 MHz.

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by audiophile » Thu May 11, 2023 9:23 am

bmw wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:04 am
MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 6:21 am
Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
I disagree with that premise. A debt default could have disastrous consequences in terms of the capital markets, and people's 401K balances could tank. I think under such a scenario voters are more likely to blame Congress than the President.
My point was that Republicans have already passed a bill and dug their heels in. It would be the act of digging their heels in and then caving at the last minute that would finish them as a party. I do agree that a lot of voters would blame Congress rather than the President, but only because the President is a Democrat and Republicans always get the blame for government shutdowns (and this type of blame I suspect would apply to a default).

As an aside, the House HAS passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling.
Since the house has passed a bill and the senate hasn't, the senate with democrat majority should get the blame.


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

User avatar
TC Talks
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by TC Talks » Thu May 11, 2023 9:27 am

audiophile wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:23 am
bmw wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:04 am
MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 6:21 am
Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
I disagree with that premise. A debt default could have disastrous consequences in terms of the capital markets, and people's 401K balances could tank. I think under such a scenario voters are more likely to blame Congress than the President.
My point was that Republicans have already passed a bill and dug their heels in. It would be the act of digging their heels in and then caving at the last minute that would finish them as a party. I do agree that a lot of voters would blame Congress rather than the President, but only because the President is a Democrat and Republicans always get the blame for government shutdowns (and this type of blame I suspect would apply to a default).

As an aside, the House HAS passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling.
Since the house has passed a bill and the senate hasn't, the senate with democrat majority should get the blame.
Things wouldn't go that way except in a very small group of self destructionists.

This is about a small radical group of Republicans that want their way and aren't going to get their way. Biden can end run this if necessary. See my post about his options.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

User avatar
Rate This
Posts: 13966
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:17 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by Rate This » Thu May 11, 2023 1:19 pm

TC Talks wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:27 am
audiophile wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:23 am
bmw wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:04 am
MWmetalhead wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 6:21 am
Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
I disagree with that premise. A debt default could have disastrous consequences in terms of the capital markets, and people's 401K balances could tank. I think under such a scenario voters are more likely to blame Congress than the President.
My point was that Republicans have already passed a bill and dug their heels in. It would be the act of digging their heels in and then caving at the last minute that would finish them as a party. I do agree that a lot of voters would blame Congress rather than the President, but only because the President is a Democrat and Republicans always get the blame for government shutdowns (and this type of blame I suspect would apply to a default).

As an aside, the House HAS passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling.
Since the house has passed a bill and the senate hasn't, the senate with democrat majority should get the blame.
Things wouldn't go that way except in a very small group of self destructionists.

This is about a small radical group of Republicans that want their way and aren't going to get their way. Biden can end run this if necessary. See my post about his options.
They can also whip up a few trillion dollar coins and deposit them in the federal reserve.



User avatar
TC Talks
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by TC Talks » Thu May 11, 2023 3:33 pm

Debt is a theory for the US at this point. It hasn't caused the end of times predictions conservatives have threatened for years.

Default? Big problem.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

bmw
Posts: 6727
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:02 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by bmw » Sun May 28, 2023 9:42 am

bmw wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:45 am
Commenting just from a political perspective - IF the Republicans ultimately cave on this issue (which, if past behavior is any indication, that is a likely outcome) and Biden mostly gets his way, the Republican party is finished.
Well...McCarthy (as I expected) folded like a cheap tent. We'll see if House Republicans follow suit, They kind of have to since they ultimately caved by electing McCarthy as Speaker.

This just sealed Trump's nomination, IMO.



User avatar
TC Talks
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Re: The Debt Limit..

Post by TC Talks » Sun May 28, 2023 9:55 am

McCarthy and Biden have a deal. Now it's time to test if super nuts in the house have any weight. Its likely they will be sidelined in many negotiations going forward. These are the Trump supporters and they are slipping into irrelevancy. Biden has pisssd off the very progressives too. Maybe the pendulum is move back to moderation.

In a sign of their displeasure, House Freedom Caucus members were huddling to identify procedural tools to delay passage of the agreement or make the bill more conservative.

According to a person familiar with the agreement, it also would impose new work requirements for some recipients of government aid, including food stamps and the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program. It would place new limits on how long certain recipients of food stamps — people under the age of 54, who do not have children — could benefit from the program. But it also would expand food stamp access for veterans and the homeless, said the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss details of the package.

The tentative deal also claws back some unspent money from a previous pandemic relief bill, and reduces by $10 billion — to $70 billion from $80 billion — new enforcement funding for the I.R.S. to crack down on tax cheats. It includes measures meant to speed environmental reviews of certain energy projects and a provision meant to force the president to find budget savings to offset the costs of a unilateral action, like forgiving student loans — though administration officials could circumvent that requirement. It also includes an enforcement measure that is meant to avert a government shutdown later this year.

The work requirements and the environmental review reforms were among the last details the two sides worked out on Saturday.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic