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the Debt Limit Explained

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FakeAndyStuart
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the Debt Limit Explained

Post by FakeAndyStuart » Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:41 am

1) Despite everyone calling for "Biden's spending spree" to be stopped, the President has ZERO authority to spend money. Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers.
2) The President and his administration are LEGALLY required to follow the instructions of those bills and spend the money allocated to be spent.
3) There are pretty good legal arguments that contend that the legal restriction on the Treasury issuing bonds etc,. the "debt limit", is by definition unconstitutional since it stops the Executive Branch from fulfilling its duties under the Constitution.

Using the debt limit as a cudgel is a distraction against the actual problem - Congressional spending.

There are constitutional scholars who contend that the Treasury should ignore the debt limit and continue what they do in issuing bonds and borrowing money. Wonder if the Obama folks back in 2013 thought that would cause a constitution crisis at some point, as they chose not to do that.
Nice way of deflecting and talking down to me like I'm a 3rd grader without actually answering my question, which was, what is the point of having a debt ceiling if you can just keep raising it indefinitely?
You answered your own question.



bmw
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by bmw » Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:10 pm

You're significantly undermining the President's role when it comes to spending money. First off, your #1 above would more accurately read "Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers and are signed into law by the President." This is an important omission on your part considering that a 2/3 vote in both bodies of Congress is needed to override a Presidential veto. The President's power here is essentially equivalent to that of 16 Senators and 72 House members combined. So let's not pretend that the President shares no responsibility for government spending as he/she holds the equivalent power of 88 Congress people.

Then there's this:
The president submits a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February every year. The budget contains estimates of federal government income and spending for the upcoming fiscal year and also recommends funding levels for the federal government. Congress then must pass appropriations bills based on the president's recommendations and Congressional priorities. If Congress does not pass all appropriations measures by the start of the fiscal year (October 1), it has to enact a continuing resolution to keep the government running.
https://www.senate.gov/reference/refere ... government.



km1125
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by km1125 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:29 pm

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:41 am
1) Despite everyone calling for "Biden's spending spree" to be stopped, the President has ZERO authority to spend money. Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers.
....
And yet he was just going to "wipe out" billions and billions (maybe approaching or exceeding a TRILLION?)of repayment dollars via the student loans by the "stroke of a pen"!! Did Congress have any say in that decision??



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TC Talks
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by TC Talks » Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:03 pm

km1125 wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:29 pm
FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:41 am
1) Despite everyone calling for "Biden's spending spree" to be stopped, the President has ZERO authority to spend money. Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers.
....
And yet he was just going to "wipe out" billions and billions (maybe approaching or exceeding a TRILLION?)of repayment dollars via the student loans by the "stroke of a pen"!! Did Congress have any say in that decision??
Jealous?


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
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Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

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FakeAndyStuart
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by FakeAndyStuart » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 am

Do they not teach American History and Government in public schools anymore?
You're significantly undermining the President's role when it comes to spending money. First off, your #1 above would more accurately read "Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers and are signed into law by the President." This is an important omission on your part considering that a 2/3 vote in both bodies of Congress is needed to override a Presidential veto. The President's power here is essentially equivalent to that of 16 Senators and 72 House members combined. So let's not pretend that the President shares no responsibility for government spending as he/she holds the equivalent power of 88 Congress people.
Your "equivalent power" analogy misses the target completely. Does the President share responsibility? Yes, as Harry T said The Buck Stops Here. But a President has only two choices - sign the check and spend the money that the majority of both chambers voted to spend, or veto and not spend. He can't unilaterally write a check, fill in the amount of his choice and sign that check. By the same token, President Trump signed bills that added over 33% to the national debt. Again, these were bills passed by both chambers of government. Why isn't anyone crying out about the "Trump spending spree?"

And you can quote the rules of the Senate about budgets all you want, but those are just rules decided by Senators and have no reference in the Constitution. The Constitution clearly says Congress is responsible for spending, taxing and borrowing. For Congress to send all these checks to any President to sign, and not allocate the money to cover those checks, is being totally irresponsible.

This is not a Republican vs Democrat, conservative vs liberal argument. This is a basic we have a shitty way of running this country as everyone is battling for primary votes and not trying to productively run the country problem.



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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by Rate This » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:20 am

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 am
Do they not teach American History and Government in public schools anymore?
You're significantly undermining the President's role when it comes to spending money. First off, your #1 above would more accurately read "Government money can only be spent by Congress, with bills that pass both chambers and are signed into law by the President." This is an important omission on your part considering that a 2/3 vote in both bodies of Congress is needed to override a Presidential veto. The President's power here is essentially equivalent to that of 16 Senators and 72 House members combined. So let's not pretend that the President shares no responsibility for government spending as he/she holds the equivalent power of 88 Congress people.
Your "equivalent power" analogy misses the target completely. Does the President share responsibility? Yes, as Harry T said The Buck Stops Here. But a President has only two choices - sign the check and spend the money that the majority of both chambers voted to spend, or veto and not spend. He can't unilaterally write a check, fill in the amount of his choice and sign that check. By the same token, President Trump signed bills that added over 33% to the national debt. Again, these were bills passed by both chambers of government. Why isn't anyone crying out about the "Trump spending spree?"

And you can quote the rules of the Senate about budgets all you want, but those are just rules decided by Senators and have no reference in the Constitution. The Constitution clearly says Congress is responsible for spending, taxing and borrowing. For Congress to send all these checks to any President to sign, and not allocate the money to cover those checks, is being totally irresponsible.

This is not a Republican vs Democrat, conservative vs liberal argument. This is a basic we have a shitty way of running this country as everyone is battling for primary votes and not trying to productively run the country problem.
Governing and trying to help people? What’s that?



bmw
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by bmw » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:55 am

FakeAndyStuart wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:05 am
...
I sharply criticized Trump for signing the first round of Covid spending. I also opposed the Trump tax cuts - I'm sure that thread I created at the time is buried in here somewhere.

Same for George W. Bush when Republicans controlled Congress - I don't believe he vetoed a single piece of spending legislation that the Republicans put on his desk.

All that aside, my point is that the President can not only set the tone for spending moving forward, but has a veto power to back up his/her words. Meaning, the President literally has the power of 16 Senators and 72 House members to block spending he/she believes is wasteful. But Presidents rarely use this power to actually wield influence for the purpose of cutting spending.

So when a President signs a spending bill that has wasteful spending it and the bill didn't pass with 2/3 support of both bodies of Congress, I would argue that the President is as responsible as Congress is for said wasteful spending.



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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by Rate This » Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:03 am

Deficits went down under Clinton, Obama and now Biden... Then the Republicans got elected in between and blew holes in the budget... We were PAYING OFF debt under Clinton.



bmw
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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by bmw » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:04 pm

What metrics are you using to suggest that deficits went down under Obama and Biden? Our national debt as a percentage of GDP sharply increased during both administrations.

I'll give you Clinton, but per FakeAndy's argument, that credit really goes to Newt Gingrich and the Republican-controlled Congress.



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Re: the Debt Limit Explained

Post by Rate This » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:07 pm

bmw wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:04 pm
What metrics are you using to suggest that deficits went down under Obama and Biden? Our national debt as a percentage of GDP sharply increased during both administrations.

I'll give you Clinton, but per FakeAndy's argument, that credit really goes to Newt Gingrich and the Republican-controlled Congress.
Under Clinton it went to both him and the Republicans... GASP!... they worked together!

As for Obama especially and now Biden the budget deficits went down every year. In other words the government started taking in more and more money thus adding less to the debt each year. We didn't get to the BUDGET SURPLUS we had under Clinton but they managed to work out deals that got the deficit down further each year of his presidency. The main issue is tax cuts... they greatly contribute to increased deficits. Trickle down doesn't work.... raising revenue works exactly how common sense says it does. More taxes = more revenue and less taxes = less revenue. No amount of conservative pixie dust fixes that.



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