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Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

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bmw
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Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by bmw » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:47 am

I generally avoid abortion debates in here, but I do want to comment on how the case being heard by the Supreme Court is being covered by the media. Specifically, it is all about "abortion rights" and women's rights. Every single news article I have read on the subject mentions "abortion rights" or "a woman's right to have an abortion." And I don't take issue with that, as that is indeed one side of the argument, and is also the law of the land thanks to Roe v. Wade. However, the other side of the debate involves both rights of the unborn and state's rights, and those don't get mentioned, ever.

To me this parallels the slavery debate. I think we can all agree today that the debate over slavery was ultimately about the rights of all people regardless of skin color, and that to think of slavery only in terms of the rights of the slave-holder would be ridiculous. But that is the equivalent of how the abortion debate is being covered. To illustrate my point, I'll take an excerpt from a BBC article today:
In Wednesday's hearing into the case, conservative justices hinted that a majority backed upholding the law. A ruling, expected in June, may see millions of women lose abortion access. Anti-abortion activists are urging the court to "protect unborn children", but experts warn of an increase in maternal mortality if abortion is restricted. Both sides of the debate regard this case, known as Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health Organization, as an all-or-nothing fight over abortion rights.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59495210

Now imagine that exact bias being used to report on the slavery debate back in the day:

In Wednesday's hearing into the case, conservative justices hinted that a majority backed limiting slavery. A ruling, expected in June, may see millions of slave-holders lose their access to slaves. Anti-slavery activists are urging the court to "protect slave-holders", but experts warn of an increase in slave-holder suicides if slavery is restricted. Both sides of the debate regard this case as an all-or-nothing fight over slavery rights.

To me, I feel like the views of many on unborn children are stuck in the 1700s and early 1800s. For as progressive of a society as we are - rights for all and quality for all - I find abortion to be an odd exception to this.



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Bryce
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Bryce » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:46 pm

I think Justice Clarence Thomas asked the best question of the day. Paraphrasing, he asked "Can you show me in the Constitution where it mentions a woman's right to have an abortion?" The question wasn't answered. The response was pretty much a 5-minute filibuster.

What I find disingenuous by many of the commentators when they say this will outlaw abortion in the land. It does no such thing. It leaves the regulations in the hands of each individual state like a small r republic is supposed to be. If you think abortions won't be available in States like california, illinois, New York etc etc you're just kidding yourself.

And why is it those on the left that are so adamant about allowing persons to have sovereignty over their own body and medical health issues, don't feel that way when it comes to getting the jab?


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Rate This
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Rate This » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm

Bryce wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:46 pm
I think Justice Clarence Thomas asked the best question of the day. Paraphrasing, he asked "Can you show me in the Constitution where it mentions a woman's right to have an abortion?" The question wasn't answered. The response was pretty much a 5-minute filibuster.

What I find disingenuous by many of the commentators when they say this will outlaw abortion in the land. It does no such thing. It leaves the regulations in the hands of each individual state like a small r republic is supposed to be. If you think abortions won't be available in States like california, illinois, New York etc etc you're just kidding yourself.

And why is it those on the left that are so adamant about allowing persons to have sovereignty over their own body and medical health issues, don't feel that way when it comes to getting the jab?
Because a women could have 100 abortions and it wouldn’t effect everybody else. Someone not getting the jab makes it far easier for them to infect 100 people and potentially cause death and destruction. One has little to no consequences for society and the other has major consequences on multiple levels. That’s one of the most no-brainer questions ever posed on the Buzzboard.

The 14th Amendment right to die process is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas. That’s the reasoning that was used for Roe and the later Planned Parenthood V Casey. That a woman has a right to privacy in making a medical decision.
Last edited by Rate This on Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.



km1125
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by km1125 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:32 pm

Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm
Because a women could have 100 abortions and it wouldn’t effect everybody else. Someone not getting the jab makes it far easier for them to infect 100 people and potentially cause death and destruction. One has little to no consequences for society and the other has major consequences on multiple levels. That’s one of the most no-brainer questions ever posed on the Buzzboard.

The 14th Amendment is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas.
The babies would probably argue that point.

Getting a jab doesn't prevent you from getting or spreading the virus, but you probably already knew that too.



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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Rate This » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:35 pm

km1125 wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:32 pm
Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm
Because a women could have 100 abortions and it wouldn’t effect everybody else. Someone not getting the jab makes it far easier for them to infect 100 people and potentially cause death and destruction. One has little to no consequences for society and the other has major consequences on multiple levels. That’s one of the most no-brainer questions ever posed on the Buzzboard.

The 14th Amendment is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas.
The babies would probably argue that point.

Getting a jab doesn't prevent you from getting or spreading the virus, but you probably already knew that too.
There are specific cutoffs for fetal rights. Viability is the standard which occurs at 24 weeks. At that point it starts to have rights. Before that it is incapable of arguing the point or realizing there is a point. It’s a collection of cells.

While I realize that getting a jab doesn’t prevent you from getting or spreading the virus it reduces transmission and lessens symptoms. The unvaccinated do neither thing. Period.



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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Honeyman » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:57 pm

Reagan4prez wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:46 pm
Other than being murder, there’s nothing wrong with abortion.
You really are a pathetic individual. To continue to make up fake names so you can return again and again and again to a website where you are not wanted. What a worthless, unfulfilling, meaningless life you must have.


The censorship king from out of state.

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Bryce
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Bryce » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:54 pm

Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm

The 14th Amendment right to die process is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas.
Oh, I can hardly wait for your explanation on this. Even the Supreme Court in Washington v. Glucksberg said there was no such thing.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Rate This » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm

Bryce wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:54 pm
Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm

The 14th Amendment right to die process is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas.
Oh, I can hardly wait for your explanation on this. Even the Supreme Court in Washington v. Glucksberg said there was no such thing.
Basically this:
The Court's decisions in Roe, and later in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, are based on the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. The basic reasoning is that a woman has a right to privacy in making a medical decision, though eventually the unborn baby reaches a point of development where it has rights, too. Roe established a framework for fetal rights based on trimesters (no prohibitions are OK in the first, some are OK in the second, most are OK in the third). Casey replaced that with a standard based on fetal viability, decreeing that the line between "abortions can't be limited" and "most abortions can be prohibited" is 24 weeks. That reflects the basic scientific consensus as to the point at which a fetus is viable. And, following from that, the Court concluded that the moment a fetus becomes viable is also the moment that it begins to have rights.
The assisted suicide decision in the case you are referring to did not change the above from Casey V. Planned Parenthood. It merely said that assisted suicide is not protected by the due process clause. Roe and Casey are the guiding cases on this.



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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Bryce » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:50 am

Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm
Bryce wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:54 pm
Rate This wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:23 pm

The 14th Amendment right to die process is the proper rebuttal to Clarence Thomas.
Oh, I can hardly wait for your explanation on this. Even the Supreme Court in Washington v. Glucksberg said there was no such thing.
Basically this:
The Court's decisions in Roe, and later in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, are based on the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. The basic reasoning is that a woman has a right to privacy in making a medical decision, though eventually the unborn baby reaches a point of development where it has rights, too. Roe established a framework for fetal rights based on trimesters (no prohibitions are OK in the first, some are OK in the second, most are OK in the third). Casey replaced that with a standard based on fetal viability, decreeing that the line between "abortions can't be limited" and "most abortions can be prohibited" is 24 weeks. That reflects the basic scientific consensus as to the point at which a fetus is viable. And, following from that, the Court concluded that the moment a fetus becomes viable is also the moment that it begins to have rights.
The assisted suicide decision in the case you are referring to did not change the above from Casey V. Planned Parenthood. It merely said that assisted suicide is not protected by the due process clause. Roe and Casey are the guiding cases on this.
So being as since those decisions were made, modern SCIENCE has found that a heart beat starts at about the third week, is there a possibility the Justices got it wrong with those two cases?

I mean, it wouldn't be the first time they got it wrong. Dred Scott, Pace v Alabama, Korematsu and Plessy v Ferguson are a couple that come to mind. Those cases, at one time, were considered to be "guiding settled law."

Personally, I find the use of the Fourteenth, which was adopted because of the southern Democrat states not treating black people the way they should and infringing on their basic right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" to justify abortion to be wrong on it's face. I mean geeze, it's kind of "self evident." Kind of tough to have Liberty and pursue Happiness if they end your Life before you can get out of the birth canal.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by audiophile » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:58 am

I'm not sure what they were smoking in 1973, stringing those amendments together like popcorn on string.


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Rate This » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:45 am

Reagan4prez wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:37 pm
audiophile wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:58 am
I'm not sure what they were smoking in 1973, stringing those amendments together like popcorn on string.
Everyone now knows that after conception it is all human, all living, and worthy of protection, like every other human regardless of age or location.

The other side of this debate justifies murder out of convenience. It’s as simple as that.

It’s not about a mother’s body. If it were, abortion would kill the mother. It kills her baby. It’s about the body inside the mother’ body, not the mother’s body.
Begone.



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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by audiophile » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:17 am

What what's wrong RT?

I know it's hard to compete with us Pro-Life folks, as deep down inside your conscience you know we're right...

Even TT is Pro-Life, C'mon join us!


Ask not what your country can do FOR you; ask what they are about to do TO YOU!!

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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by craig11152 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:38 am

I don't see the slavery vs abortion comparison unless you are suggesting southern states should still have slavery. States rights vs Federal mandates.
If you're in Mississippi and want an abortion go to New York.
If you're in Alabama and don't want to be a slave go to California.


I no longer directly engage trolls

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Honeyman
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Honeyman » Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:21 am

audiophile wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:17 am
What what's wrong RT?

I know it's hard to compete with us Pro-Life folks, as deep down inside your conscience you know we're right...

Even TT is Pro-Life, C'mon join us!
Rate just thinks Reagan (lovinlife) should not be allowed to post her since she/he/it has been banned multiple times for posting "ni--er" "fa--ot", etc.


The censorship king from out of state.

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Bryce
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Re: Parallels between the abortion debate and slavery

Post by Bryce » Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:32 am

craig11152 wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:38 am
I don't see the slavery vs abortion comparison unless you are suggesting southern states should still have slavery. States rights vs Federal mandates.
If you're in Mississippi and want an abortion go to New York.
If you're in Alabama and don't want to be a slave go to California.
BMW's argument has some parallels, but his point doesn't really cover case law or the constitution, but is directed more at the slanted and biased media coverage this case is getting by the MSM.

The Justice's certainly have a balancing act between the 14th and 10th Amendments in this case. On one hand an unborn child isn't afforded the right conferred by the 14th because of the wording,
All persons born or naturalized in the United States
, yet the 10th
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people,
would certainly seem to reserve the power to regulate medical procedures within it's border.

My questions on the matter is how the 14th can be used to confer abortion rights to an individual. I don't think it can without some major contortions.

Another question. If you remember back to the Scott/Lacy Peterson case, Scott Peterson was convicted of Second Degree murder in the death of his unborn child. This case was heard in the state of California, certainly a pro abortion sate. How can the law convict someone of murder when a person can legally do the same thing at a Planned Parenthood Clinic? I mean, it would seem according to Roe v Wade, the most he should be charged with is destruction of property being as an unborn child has no rights and isn't treated as a person so to speak.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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