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'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

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jadednihilist
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'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by jadednihilist » Thu May 13, 2021 11:35 am

For anyone that's interested, I came across this paper just published in the British Journal of Social Psychology entitled Implicit racism, colour blindness, and narrow definitions of discrimination: Why some White people prefer ‘All Lives Matter’ to ‘Black Lives Matter’. It provides some pretty good food for thought and cites several studies that examine the prevalence of systemic racism that try to take into account other factors that may inflate the raw numbers (one study cited takes into account crime rates by racial group when assessing disparate excessive force by police officers along racial lines).

I find the conclusions outlined in the abstract to be the most interesting:
Using multiple regression analyses, we found that implicit racism, colour-blind ideology, and narrow definitional boundaries of discrimination positively predicted support for ALM over BLM. Explicit racism, collective narcissism, and right-wing political orientation did not predict ALM support, nor did any (2-way) interaction of these predictors. Implications for our understanding of the All Lives Matter movement are discussed.
The paper also makes the argument in the introduction that the basis of BLM isn't a rejection of ALM, but that we can't argue that All Lives Matter until we make the distinction that Black Lives Matter, too.

Anyway, my hopes for this thread is to continue an honest discussion on the premise of the degree to which systemic racism pervades historic vs contemporary society (ideological diversity is strongly encouraged), your views on the positives and shortcomings of this and other studies, and finding common ground to help us overcome our extreme polarization.

Let's try to keep this thread civil, but rigorous, by debating the ideas and not attacking people.


I'm here for a good, hearty debate, to agree and disagree respectfully, and commiserate on the current state of terrestrial radio.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by screen glare » Sun May 16, 2021 8:20 am

“We can’t argue All Lives Matter until we make the distinction that Black Lives Matter, too.”

Excellent bumper sticker, lapel pin, or decal. As well a tattoo.



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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by craig11152 » Sun May 16, 2021 9:02 am

“We can’t argue All Lives Matter until we make the distinction that Black Lives Matter, too.”
"We can't argue Black lives matter if its only about black lives taken by cops"


What about the vast majority of black lives that are taken by other black people? (Same with white people)
That is my whole complaint about the BLM movement. They only care about the 200 black lives killed by cops and mostly ignore the 7000 + not killed by cops.
Somewhere around 88% of black homicide victims are killed by other black citizens.


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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by G G » Tue May 18, 2021 2:43 am

craig11152 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:02 am
“We can’t argue All Lives Matter until we make the distinction that Black Lives Matter, too.”
"We can't argue Black lives matter if its only about black lives taken by cops"


What about the vast majority of black lives that are taken by other black people? (Same with white people)
That is my whole complaint about the BLM movement. They only care about the 200 black lives killed by cops and mostly ignore the 7000 + not killed by cops.
Somewhere around 88% of black homicide victims are killed by other black citizens.
If you start demanding personal responsibility, then they will wake up and cut ties with the libs.

BLM isn't about protecting black citizens. It's a tool used to drive a wedge between blacks and whites. Its a stick used to beat the un-woke into submission and to acknowledge blacks as taking priority to whites.

There is a saying that you should "clean your own backyard first before criticizing someone else." Well, before criticizing whites for not valuing black lives as much as white lives, blacks need to show they value their own lives and the lives of those in their own neighborhoods before I will lend them my ear. Murder, gun violence, and now, health and wellness. What areas have the lowest rates of mask compliance and vaccinations? HINT: It isn't white.

Make black lives matter to blacks and then we can talk about whites.


Donald Trump was and is the best president this country has ever had. And he will return to glory as our leader again.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by jadednihilist » Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am

craig11152 wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:02 am
“We can’t argue All Lives Matter until we make the distinction that Black Lives Matter, too.”
"We can't argue Black lives matter if its only about black lives taken by cops"


What about the vast majority of black lives that are taken by other black people? (Same with white people)
That is my whole complaint about the BLM movement. They only care about the 200 black lives killed by cops and mostly ignore the 7000 + not killed by cops.
Somewhere around 88% of black homicide victims are killed by other black citizens.
I certainly agree with you that the overwhelming majority of homicides in this country are intraracial. The 1980-2008 DOJ stats have 84% of white homicide victims killed by white offenders and 93% of black victims killed by black offenders, which is actually a bit worse than the 88% you cited.

However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community (my apologies in advance if I misinterpreted your post). There are a number of community activists who work hard to reduce violence - and the black community is much more likely to support gun control measures in hopes of getting guns off the streets. There are also several socioeconomic arguments that attempt to explain the prevalence of inner city crime rates. I often cite the 1968 Kerner Commission findings as an example of what a different future could have looked like, but it still remains collecting dust.

I think BLM is a movement that can walk and chew gun at the same time. Police have a serious image problem in the black community, as evidenced by "the other talk" given to black young men. I don't at all support "defund/abolish the police," which I think seems to be a rally cry of some of the more extreme factions of the BLM movement, but it's not an opinion shared by civil right activists like Rev. Al Sharpton. However, there are some serious options for reforms to policing that could hopefully ameliorate police-community relations to one that is much more healthy. If the community can gain trust with law enforcement, they may feel less likely to take matters into their own hands and lower crime rates.

Another pressing issue is our criminal justice system. One, we imprison more people than any other country comparable to ours. Secondly, the US has incredibly high recidivism rates, largely attributed to the lack of resources available in rehabilitating prisoners whom have been released. We have to make the decision on whether to lock people up permanently, or if not, then how can we use the time in prison to help re-integrate prisoners back into society upon their release.


I'm here for a good, hearty debate, to agree and disagree respectfully, and commiserate on the current state of terrestrial radio.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by bmw » Tue May 18, 2021 9:08 am

jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community...
It is certainly ignored by every black man who impregnates a black woman and then doesn't stick around to help raise the child. Which lately seems to be a shockingly high number. I'd be curious to know of the black-on-black crime how much of this is committed by black men who were raised in single-parent households. You mention a lot of different causes of the high crime rates in black inner city communities but made no mention of the voluntary disintegration of the family unit.



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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by Bryce » Tue May 18, 2021 9:39 am

bmw wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:08 am
but made no mention of the voluntary disintegration of the family unit.
It wasn't really voluntary. It was encouraged by policy enacted by the Johnson administration back in the 60's.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by km1125 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:38 am

jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
....
However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community (my apologies in advance if I misinterpreted your post). There are a number of community activists who work hard to reduce violence - and the black community is much more likely to support gun control measures in hopes of getting guns off the streets. ...
It's not completely ignored, it's just largely ignored. By the activists and the activist press.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
....I think BLM is a movement that can walk and chew gun at the same time. Police have a serious image problem in the black community, as evidenced by "the other talk" given to black young men. ...
But I would contend they are putting 90% of hteir efforts on 1% of the problem. Also, the fact that they're focusing so much on this part, it becomes somewhat of a propaganda movement that misleads the very people they are "trying" to help and ends up being largely counterproductive to actually resolving anything.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
...and the black community is much more likely to support gun control measures in hopes of getting guns off the streets. ...
Great case-in-point is that none of these supposed "gun control measures" that are being supported would do **anything** to resolve the problems in the black community. NONE. Another case of putting a large amount of effort in an issue that's not even 1% of the problem. Virtually ALL of the "gun" issues in the black community are already ILLEGAL gun ownership/use/possession and could be dealt with by enforcing existing laws.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
Another pressing issue is our criminal justice system. One, we imprison more people than any other country comparable to ours. Secondly, the US has incredibly high recidivism rates, largely attributed to the lack of resources available in rehabilitating prisoners whom have been released. We have to make the decision on whether to lock people up permanently, or if not, then how can we use the time in prison to help re-integrate prisoners back into society upon their release.
Honestly, it's not "our job" to reduce the recidivism rates. It should be much more clear that the responsibility is on the convict to change his/her ways and be held accountable. We can remove some barriers that might make it easier to assimilate back to society like removing the felony from one-time non-violent crimes once the sentence is served, but if anything we need closer monitoring in the probationary period following incarceration, and severe penalties for violations.



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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by craig11152 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:47 am

jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community (my apologies in advance if I misinterpreted your post). There are a number of community activists who work hard to reduce violence
My point is when a cop kills a black man and the circumstances are hard or impossible to defend it creates a nationwide call to action. People make signs, march in the streets, confront cops, destroy property, in multiple cities around the country.
In a typical week in most large cities in America people get murdered, white and black. In Chicago this year there are a little over 200 homicides and its only the middle of May. A vast majority are black males. My hyperbole aside there is NO visible outrage. Certainly not nationwide outrage.
Everybody knows who George Floyd was but virtually nobody outside a few people in Detroit could name the triple homicide victims April 25.


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km1125
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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by km1125 » Tue May 18, 2021 10:57 am

craig11152 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:47 am
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community (my apologies in advance if I misinterpreted your post). There are a number of community activists who work hard to reduce violence
My point is when a cop kills a black man and the circumstances are hard or impossible to defend it creates a nationwide call to action. People make signs, march in the streets, confront cops, destroy property, in multiple cities around the country.
In a typical week in most large cities in America people get murdered, white and black. In Chicago this year there are a little over 200 homicides and its only the middle of May. A vast majority are black males. My hyperbole aside there is NO visible outrage. Certainly not nationwide outrage.
Everybody knows who George Floyd was but virtually nobody outside a few people in Detroit could name the triple homicide victims April 25.
You forgot one penalty... they also get disinvited to the LBGTQ parade in NYC. :rollin



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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by jadednihilist » Tue May 18, 2021 2:53 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 10:47 am
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:25 am
However, I disagree on any insinuation that this is an issue that is ignored within the black community (my apologies in advance if I misinterpreted your post). There are a number of community activists who work hard to reduce violence
My point is when a cop kills a black man and the circumstances are hard or impossible to defend it creates a nationwide call to action. People make signs, march in the streets, confront cops, destroy property, in multiple cities around the country.
In a typical week in most large cities in America people get murdered, white and black. In Chicago this year there are a little over 200 homicides and its only the middle of May. A vast majority are black males. My hyperbole aside there is NO visible outrage. Certainly not nationwide outrage.
Everybody knows who George Floyd was but virtually nobody outside a few people in Detroit could name the triple homicide victims April 25.
Fair point. Thank you for the clarification. I do agree that the discussion, as framed in the public forum (media) is intentionally divisive and counterproductive. As you and km1125 alluded to, I think it is a fair question to ask where does the responsibility lie in resolving inner city violence?

I would broaden the argument towards having a movement understanding the causes of high inner-city violent crime rates. That's where the discussion determining the role and the magnitude that systemic racism has to play in fomenting a predisposition to violence. Note that a lot of BLM discussions do center around systemic racism in several facets of life, not just policing. This discussion explores questions such as, does the violence stem from an absence of opportunity? Higher income black communities do not see nearly the level of crime rates as lower income black communities. How much of a role does our public school system play in opportunity? Detroit schools have historically underprepared their students for 20th and 21st century jobs and college education. This ties into studies that have shown the zip code in which you grew up in is actually a decent predictor of life expectancy. Other questions regarding violence, as bmw alluded to, stem from the dissolution of the nuclear family (and does this cut across racial lines)? What role does each racial community have to play in resolving racial disparities?

We don't have the answers to these questions. We have a hodgepodge of studies (all with subjectivities and assumptions that can be nitpicked to death), movements, and red hot debates where we talk over each other. We're not going to get there with the cable news/social media/political outrage machines, but I do believe we could with a series of brutally honest and difficult conversations. My inclination is that there is a burden on the broader systemic role that can go a long way in reducing racial disparities, including violent crime rates, which requires buy-in from the communities in effected, but also the American public at large. I say this because we've never really addressed the depths of the centuries racism in this country. We got rid of slavery, but continued oppression through Jim Crow. We got rid of Jim Crow and made actively racist attitudes taboo in the 1960s, but we haven't addressed the lingering disparities. Do the disparities go away naturally - or are there some broader actions that will facilitate equity?

I think most people come into this world wanting basically the same thing: to get by and have a meaningful life. All of my above questions center around finding out how have we allowed things to derail as they have.

Honestly, it's not "our job" to reduce the recidivism rates. It should be much more clear that the responsibility is on the convict to change his/her ways and be held accountable. We can remove some barriers that might make it easier to assimilate back to society like removing the felony from one-time non-violent crimes once the sentence is served, but if anything we need closer monitoring in the probationary period following incarceration, and severe penalties for violations.
As to km1225's point, I would agree that there is plenty of responsibility that lies on the convict. However, that doesn't change the fact that heavily punitive approaches have helped deter repeat offenders and end up causing more victims of crimes. I would argue that a bit of help would go a long way in making everyone safer, rather than hinging our bets on people whom already been deemed to have caused societal harm compounded by punishment and a permanent stain on their record that severely limits employment opportunities. Isn't the time served enough punishment - or should the felon label be one that is effectively a life sentence?


I'm here for a good, hearty debate, to agree and disagree respectfully, and commiserate on the current state of terrestrial radio.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by jadednihilist » Tue May 18, 2021 3:19 pm

Purely anecdotal, but I feel that it is important that I share why this debate is personal for me. I was born and raised as an inner city public school kid up through the 8th grade. My family moved out of state in 9th grade, where I attended high school in an affluent high-achieving school district. I was unprepared for the transition, and coincidentally, was exposed to the disparities in education, yet I was able still to catch up my freshman year. My high school education prepared me for college, and now I have a PhD from an "elite" university in my dream career.

I can't help but think about how the direction my life would have gone if it weren't for a fortunate set of circumstances that were beyond my control. My friends that I grew up with, some arguably equally or better talented than myself, have not shared the same fate. It feels like they were written off, like I easily could have been. I recognize the role my efforts play into my personal success, but I also recognize the barriers that were dropped that allowed me to be in the position that I'm in. I really don't think that it was my own merit alone that got me to the place I'm at today, which is why it's important for me to examine what barriers are preventing others from following my path.


I'm here for a good, hearty debate, to agree and disagree respectfully, and commiserate on the current state of terrestrial radio.

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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by km1125 » Tue May 18, 2021 5:26 pm

jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:53 pm
...That's where the discussion determining the role and the magnitude that systemic racism has to play in fomenting a predisposition to violence. ...
If you could, I'd like to you define what you're referring to as "systemic racism", as the variety of descriptions I've heard would reach to the moon and back. Then I can respond appropriately.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:53 pm
...We're not going to get there with the cable news/social media/political outrage machines, but I do believe we could with a series of brutally honest and difficult conversations.
FOCUS_HOPE had a tremendous program back in the 60s and early 70s where they brought 'inner city' folks together with 'suburb folks' to have some of these 'difficult conversations'. I'd say they were much more productive than anything I've seen since. I probably still have some of the reel-to-reel tapes of the discussions somewhere. I think the only way you could really have current productive discussions is is you banned some of the media folks and "activists" (Sharpton, Jackson, et, al.) and just had "normal" folks, perhaps with an unbiased facilitator.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:53 pm
...I say this because we've never really addressed the depths of the centuries racism in this country. We got rid of slavery, but continued oppression through Jim Crow. We got rid of Jim Crow and made actively racist attitudes taboo in the 1960s, but we haven't addressed the lingering disparities. Do the disparities go away naturally - or are there some broader actions that will facilitate equity?
A lot of discussions run out of air because folks want to address past racism issues by creating new racism issues. Don't have any problem having discussions about what went wrong in the past, but lets not use those as any justification for racist-based programs in the future to "fix" what happened in the past. The ONLY way you'd "fix" things in the past is go back to the past and relive it, and that's just not possible with present technology.
jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 2:53 pm
As to km1225's point, I would agree that there is plenty of responsibility that lies on the convict. However, that doesn't change the fact that heavily punitive approaches have helped deter repeat offenders and end up causing more victims of crimes. I would argue that a bit of help would go a long way in making everyone safer, rather than hinging our bets on people whom already been deemed to have caused societal harm compounded by punishment and a permanent stain on their record that severely limits employment opportunities. Isn't the time served enough punishment - or should the felon label be one that is effectively a life sentence?
I have no problem with providing programs that support former inmates in reengaging in society -provided- there is a strict no-tolerance policy on violations. You step out of line, you go back to the 'big house', or something similar. But you can't help someone who won't help themselves, so the onus must be on the former inmate to do *whatever* they can to facilitate their own reintroduction. It's interesting you note the impacts of their record on their employment opportunities. Just why is that? Why do companies entirely eliminate candidates that have a felony conviction on their record? They don't do it because they are required to do it. Fix THAT problem and the employment issue goes away even if you didn't eliminate the felony record. That issue is honestly not that much different than the problem of companies requiring a college degree for a lot of entry-level opportunities. Entirely ridiculous!! Most of those entry-level jobs pay entry-level wages, which could never pay off the costs of a degree. NO company would invest capital in a project that didn't' have a payoff measured in single-digit years, and they should not expect anyone else to either.



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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by MotorCityRadioFreak » Wed May 19, 2021 8:33 am

jadednihilist wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 3:19 pm
Purely anecdotal, but I feel that it is important that I share why this debate is personal for me. I was born and raised as an inner city public school kid up through the 8th grade. My family moved out of state in 9th grade, where I attended high school in an affluent high-achieving school district. I was unprepared for the transition, and coincidentally, was exposed to the disparities in education, yet I was able still to catch up my freshman year. My high school education prepared me for college, and now I have a PhD from an "elite" university in my dream career.

I can't help but think about how the direction my life would have gone if it weren't for a fortunate set of circumstances that were beyond my control. My friends that I grew up with, some arguably equally or better talented than myself, have not shared the same fate. It feels like they were written off, like I easily could have been. I recognize the role my efforts play into my personal success, but I also recognize the barriers that were dropped that allowed me to be in the position that I'm in. I really don't think that it was my own merit alone that got me to the place I'm at today, which is why it's important for me to examine what barriers are preventing others from following my path.
Privilege is a real thing despite the numb nuts around here believing it isn't.


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Re: 'Black Lives Matter' vs. 'All Lives Matter'

Post by craig11152 » Wed May 19, 2021 10:39 am

MotorCityRadioFreak wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:33 am
Privilege is a real thing despite the numb nuts around here believing it isn't.
Sort of..... but everything people attribute to privilege isn't and some things are that aren't mentioned.

For instance a Black kid in Ann Arbor or Grosse Pointe schools (yes there are some) has "Ann Arbor/Grosse Pointe privilege" over a kid in Detroit public schools.

A black kid in a 2 parent family with a doctor and lawyer for parents has "financial/ family stability/food on the table privilege" over a white kid in some trailer park with just a mom who has a substance abuse problem.


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