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White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

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TC Talks
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White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by TC Talks » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:23 pm

Maybe some of you evangelists can shed some light on why your people aren't getting vaccinated when the overlords are telling you that this is what Jesus would want...

We're on our way to becoming another Brazil.
There are about 41 million white evangelical adults in the U.S. About 45 percent said in late February that they would not get vaccinated against Covid-19, making them among the least likely demographic groups to do so, according to the Pew Research Center.

“If we can’t get a significant number of white evangelicals to come around on this, the pandemic is going to last much longer than it needs to,” said Jamie Aten, founder and executive director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College, an evangelical institution in Illinois.

As vaccines become more widely available, and as worrisome virus variants develop, the problem takes on new urgency. Significant numbers of Americans generally are resistant to getting vaccinated, but white evangelicals present unique challenges because of their complex web of moral, medical, and political objections. The challenge is further complicated by longstanding distrust between evangelicals and the scientific community.

“Would I say that all public health agencies have the information that they need to address their questions and concerns? Probably not,” said Dr. Julie Morita, the executive vice president of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and a former Chicago public health commissioner.

No clear data is available about vaccine hesitancy among evangelicals of other racial groups. But religious reasoning often spreads beyond white churches.

Many high-profile conservative pastors and institutional leaders have endorsed the vaccines. Franklin Graham told his 9.6 million Facebook followers that Jesus would advocate for vaccination. Pastor Robert Jeffress commended it from an anti-abortion perspective on Fox News. (“We talk about life inside the womb being a gift from God. Well, life outside the womb is a gift from God, too.”) The president of the Southern Baptist Convention, J.D. Greear, tweeted a photo of himself receiving a shot.

But other influential voices in the sprawling, trans-denominational movement, especially those who have gained their stature through media fame, have sown fears. Gene Bailey, the host of a prophecy-focused talk show on the Victory Channel, warned his audience in March that the government and “globalist entities” will “use bayonets and prisons to force a needle into your arm.” In a now-deleted TikTok post from an evangelical influencer’s account that has more than 900,000 followers, she dramatized being killed by authorities for refusing the vaccine.

Dr. Simone Gold, a prominent Covid-19 skeptic who was charged with violent entry and disorderly conduct in the Jan. 6 Capitol siege, told an evangelical congregation in Florida that they were in danger of being “coerced into taking an experimental biological agent.”

The evangelical radio host Eric Metaxas wrote “Don’t get the vaccine” in a tweet on March 28 that has since been deleted. “Pass it on,” he wrote.

Some evangelicals believe that any Covid restrictions — including mask mandates and restrictions on in-person church worship — constitute oppression.

And some have been energized by what they see as a battle between faith and fear, and freedom and persecution.

“Fear is the motivating power behind all of this, and fear is the opposite of who God is,” said Teresa Beukers, who travels throughout California in a motor home. “I violently oppose fear.”


Ms. Beukers foresees severe political and social consequences for resisting the vaccine, but she is determined to do so. She quit a job at Trader Joe’s when the company insisted that she wear a mask at work. Her son, she said, was kicked off his community college football team for refusing Covid testing protocols.

“Go ahead and throw us in the lions’ den, go ahead and throw us in the furnace,” she said, referring to two biblical stories in which God’s people miraculously survive persecution after refusing to submit to temporal powers.

Jesus, she added, broke ritual purity laws by interacting with lepers. “We can compare that to people who are unvaccinated,” she said. “If they get pushed out, they’ll need to live in their own colonies.”

One widespread concern among evangelicals is the vaccines’ ties to abortion. In reality, the connection is remote: Some of the vaccines were developed and tested using cells derived from the fetal tissue of elective abortions that took place decades ago.

The vaccines do not include fetal tissue, and no additional abortions are required to manufacture them. Still, the kernel of a connection has metastasized online into false rumors about human remains or fetal DNA being an ingredient in the vaccines.

Some evangelicals see the vaccine as a redemptive outcome for the original aborted fetus.

The Vatican has said that vaccines are “morally acceptable,” and Catholics in America are much less likely than white evangelicals to say they won’t get vaccinated. Pope Francis visited a vaccination site in the Vatican on Friday.Credit...Vatican Media
Some Catholic bishops have expressed concerns about the abortion link, too. But the Vatican has concluded the vaccines are “morally acceptable,” and has emphasized the immediate danger posed by the virus. Just 22 percent of Catholics in America say they will not get the vaccine, less than half the share of white evangelicals who say that.

White evangelicals who do not plan to get vaccinated sometimes say they see no need, because they do not feel at risk. Rates of Covid-19 death have been about twice as high for Black, Hispanic, and Native Americans as for white Americans.

White pastors have largely remained quiet. That’s in part because the wariness among white conservative Christians is not just medical, but also political. If white pastors encourage vaccination directly, said Dr. Aten, “there are people in the pews where you’ve just attacked their political party, and maybe their whole worldview.”

Dr. Morita, of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, said the method to reach white evangelicals is similar to building vaccine confidence in other groups: Listen to their concerns and questions, and then provide information that they can understand from people they trust.

But a public education campaign alone may not be enough.

There has been a “sea change” over the past century in how evangelical Christians see science, a change rooted largely in the debates over evolution and the secularization of the academy, said Elaine Ecklund, professor of sociology and director of the Religion and Public Life Program at Rice University.

There are two parts to the problem, she said: The scientific community has not been as friendly toward evangelicals, and the religious community has not encouraged followers to pursue careers in science.

Distrust of scientists has become part of cultural identity, of what it means to be white and evangelical in America, she said.

For slightly different reasons, the distrust is sometimes shared by Asian, Hispanic and Black Christians, who are skeptical that hospitals and medical professionals will be sensitive to their concerns, Dr. Ecklund said.

“We are seeing some of the implications of the inequalities in science,” she said. “This is an enormous warning of the fact that we do not have a more diverse scientific work force, religiously and racially.”

Among evangelicals, Pentecostal and charismatic Christians may be particularly wary of the vaccine, in part because their tradition historically emphasizes divine health and miraculous healing in ways that can rival traditional medicine, said Erica Ramirez, a scholar of Pentecostalism and director of applied research at Auburn Seminary. Charismatic churches also attract significant shares of Black and Hispanic Christians.

Dr. Ramirez compares modern Pentecostalism to Gwyneth Paltrow’s Goop, with the brand’s emphasis on “wellness” and “energy” that infuriates some scientists: “It’s extra-medical,” she said. “It’s not anti-medical, but it decenters medicine.”

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Dr. Anthony Fauci are not going to be able to persuade evangelicals, according to Curtis Chang, a consulting professor at Duke Divinity School who is leading an outreach project to educate evangelicals about the vaccine.

The project includes a series of short, shareable videos for pastors, answering questions like “How can Christians spot fake news on the vaccine?” and “Is the vaccine the Mark of the Beast?” The latter refers to an apocalyptic theory that the AntiChrist will force his sign onto everyone at the end of the world.

These are questions that secular public health entities are not equipped to answer, he said. “The even deeper problem is, the white evangelicals aren’t even on their screen.”

Mr. Chang said he recently spoke with a colleague in Uganda whose hospital had received 5,000 vaccine doses, but had only been able to administer about 400, because of the hesitancy of the heavily evangelical population.

“How American evangelicals think, write, feel about issues quickly replicates throughout the entire world,” he said.

At this critical moment, even pastors struggle to know how to reach their flocks. Joel Rainey, who leads Covenant Church in Shepherdstown, W.Va., said several colleagues were forced out of their churches after promoting health and vaccination guidelines.

Politics has increasingly been shaping faith among white evangelicals, rather than the other way around, he said. Pastors’ influence on their churches is decreasing. “They get their people for one hour, and Sean Hannity gets them for the next 20,” he said.

Mr. Rainey helped his own Southern Baptist congregation get ahead of false information by publicly interviewing medical experts — a retired colonel specializing in infectious disease, a church member who is a Walter Reed logistics management analyst, and a church elder who is a nurse for the Department of Veterans Affairs.

On the worship stage, in front of the praise band’s drum set, he asked them “all of the questions that a follower of Jesus might have,” he said later.

“It is necessary for pastors to instruct their people that we don’t always have to be adversaries with the culture around us,” he said. “We believe Jesus died for those people, so why in the world would we see them as adversaries?”


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

km1125
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by km1125 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:18 pm

TL;DR, for the most part. But I did get to the first two statements. If there's 19 million folks in this group that might not get vaccinated, what percentage of the US population would that be? (hint: less than 6%)

Just how is that going to affect the goal of "herd immunity", if that goal is about 70% of the population??? That makes the group in the article only about 20% of the "problem", so what's the other 80%?



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Robert Faygo
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Robert Faygo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:26 pm

Any chance these "leaders" (are they, really, leaders??) are only taking these stances to draw attention to themselves and their churches?

With more and more Americans walking away from organized religion every year, the pressure to keep the coffers full has to be a thing.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/chu ... -time.aspx


Wellllll... la de frickin da

Matt
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Matt » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:27 pm

What a surprise - the TC bigot posts a bigoted thread and does not link the source.


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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Robert Faygo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:35 pm

Still trying to figure out why TC Talks thinks that the incessant baiting he does on this forum does anything other than put a shit stain on what otherwise might be a valid discussion point.

If he did this in his real life, he'd be ostracized and tossed out of any kind of position of trust.


Wellllll... la de frickin da

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Big Al
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Big Al » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:58 pm

The best argument, for or against the vaccine will be whether it is effective and if it results in any unwanted side effects. From what people have told me so far, I don't think that possible side effects would make me not want to take the shot, but the effectiveness will take time to judge. Thus far it seems that there's a soft downside and a promising upside, so people will come around eventually. If they don't, then that's their choice. But if I was a fat guy or over 50, I would desperately want to take it.



km1125
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by km1125 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:41 pm

Big Al wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:58 pm
The best argument, for or against the vaccine will be whether it is effective and if it results in any unwanted side effects. From what people have told me so far, I don't think that possible side effects would make me not want to take the shot, but the effectiveness will take time to judge. Thus far it seems that there's a soft downside and a promising upside, so people will come around eventually. If they don't, then that's their choice. But if I was a fat guy or over 50, I would desperately want to take it.
Not only the effectiveness will take time to judge, but really the safety of it too. There are no guarantees it's safe long-term, only speculation. When one of the first polio vaccines came out it took two years before they banned it due to problems. The replacement, which was much better, was also reconsidered after thirty years because of issues it also presented.

It is a gamble to take it. If you're at "high risk", then it's likely a gamble worth taking.



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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Matt » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:53 pm

Big Al wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:58 pm
The best argument, for or against the vaccine will be whether it is effective and if it results in any unwanted side effects. From what people have told me so far, I don't think that possible side effects would make me not want to take the shot, but the effectiveness will take time to judge. Thus far it seems that there's a soft downside and a promising upside, so people will come around eventually. If they don't, then that's their choice. But if I was a fat guy or over 50, I would desperately want to take it.
Your profile says you're 52.


Voting for Trump is dumber than playing Russian Roulette with fully loaded chambers.

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TC Talks
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by TC Talks » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:30 pm

It's not baiting when my Kristian neighbor almost died this weekend after refusing the vaccine. He's in the hospital, and we pray he doesn't need intubation.

His church's lead minister raised question about the vaccine, let's hope he isn't left with blood on his hands.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Robert Faygo » Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:34 pm

So labeling your neighbor as a member of the KKK because he believes in Christ is not baiting.

So noted.


Wellllll... la de frickin da

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TC Talks
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by TC Talks » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:53 pm

Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:34 pm
So labeling your neighbor as a member of the KKK because he believes in Christ is not baiting.

So noted.
so where exactly did I label him that? You seem to be making things up.

It's probably why I don't respond to your posts you're kind of full of shit.


“The more you can increase fear of drugs, crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.”
― Noam Chomsky

Posting Content © 2024 TC Talks Holdings LP.

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Bryce
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Bryce » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:42 am

TC Talks wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:53 pm
Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:34 pm
So labeling your neighbor as a member of the KKK because he believes in Christ is not baiting.

So noted.
so where exactly did I label him that? You seem to be making things up.

It's probably why I don't respond to your posts you're kind of full of shit.
Umm, from my "say it how I see it" point of view, spelling Christians with a K would leave one to believe that's exactly what you're labeling them.


New York and Chicago were all in with respect to their sanctuary status — until they were hit with the challenge of actually providing sanctuary. In other words, typical liberal hypocrisy.

bmw
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by bmw » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 am

Bryce wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:42 am
TC Talks wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:53 pm
Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:34 pm
So labeling your neighbor as a member of the KKK because he believes in Christ is not baiting.

So noted.
so where exactly did I label him that? You seem to be making things up.

It's probably why I don't respond to your posts you're kind of full of shit.
Umm, from my "say it how I see it" point of view, spelling Christians with a K would leave one to believe that's exactly what you're labeling them.
That is EXACTLY what he is labeling them. He uses that spelling routinely in here when specifically talking about Evangelical Christians, the first instance of which showed up in the search results back in early 2016:
TC Talks wrote:
Mon May 23, 2016 9:10 pm
Separate Bathrooms by Religion? Oklahoma Opens New Front in Transgender Debate.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/us ... ebate.html
-----
Meanwhile way down in 1873, some Kristians are busy being grateful.
The KKK was founded in the mid 1860s and had taken a foothold in the 1870s. This use here was clearly a reference to segregation given the topic. Nevertheless, if there was ANY doubt whatsoever whether his repeated use of the word "Kristian" is used as a reference to the KKK, we need look no further than this post from 2019:
TC Talks wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:11 am
Modern Evangelical Christianity has its roots in the KKK which was a men's Christian Association...
https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... ns#p590567

So yeah, the only one around who is "full of shit" is TC Talks, as usual.



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Rate This
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Rate This » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 am

bmw wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:19 am
Bryce wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:42 am
TC Talks wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:53 pm
Robert Faygo wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:34 pm
So labeling your neighbor as a member of the KKK because he believes in Christ is not baiting.

So noted.
so where exactly did I label him that? You seem to be making things up.

It's probably why I don't respond to your posts you're kind of full of shit.
Umm, from my "say it how I see it" point of view, spelling Christians with a K would leave one to believe that's exactly what you're labeling them.
That is EXACTLY what he is labeling them. He uses that spelling routinely in here when specifically talking about Evangelical Christians, the first instance of which showed up in the search results back in early 2016:
TC Talks wrote:
Mon May 23, 2016 9:10 pm
Separate Bathrooms by Religion? Oklahoma Opens New Front in Transgender Debate.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/21/us ... ebate.html
-----
Meanwhile way down in 1873, some Kristians are busy being grateful.
The KKK was founded in the mid 1860s and had taken a foothold in the 1870s. This use here was clearly a reference to segregation given the topic. Nevertheless, if there was ANY doubt whatsoever whether his repeated use of the word "Kristian" is used as a reference to the KKK, we need look no further than this post from 2019:
TC Talks wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:11 am
Modern Evangelical Christianity has its roots in the KKK which was a men's Christian Association...
https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... ns#p590567

So yeah, the only one around who is "full of shit" is TC Talks, as usual.
While I would not call them members of the KKK (come on man)... I would call them deeply flawed and hypocritical groups a large part of which has its origins in the opposition to the current changeover from a mainly white society to one that is majority minority. These evangelical folks are not fans of it.



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Robert Faygo
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Re: White Evangelical Kristians not following orders

Post by Robert Faygo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:29 am

Rate This wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:54 am
While I would not call them members of the KKK (come on man)... I would call them deeply flawed and hypocritical groups a large part of which has its origins in the opposition to the current changeover from a mainly white society to one that is majority minority. These evangelical folks are not fans of it.
Absolutely.

It's amusing to watch TCT at work on this forum. I don't think I've ever witnessed someone that can make intelligent and valid points while simultaneously discrediting those points and himself with his raging bigotry and hypocrisy. And then blame others when he gets called out on his own posts.


Wellllll... la de frickin da

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