TC Talks - what do you have against white people?

[Bryce]

Frankly, it's hard to take your opinion on racism seriously knowing you live in just about the least diverse area in Michigan.

Tell you what, come on down during the week sometime. I'll take you shopping in the evening at the Save A Lot on Warren and Grand River. We'll have dinner at The Midwest Grille near the Davison and Linwood, then top it off with after dinner cocktails and entertainment at the Player's Lounge.

We'll repeat the exercise a few times, THEN you may be able to weigh in with a bit more knowledge.

[km1125]

KM1125,

Would you be willing to take anti bias, anti racism training?

I have had to take it.

And it's about as worthless as the sexual harassment training we've had to do too.

I am sure there are some folks it might be applicable to, just like the annual network security training which encourages folks to use strong passwords and not click on links in their emails. I don't really need that one either, but I have to take it anyway.

[km1125]

Frankly, it's hard to take your opinion on racism seriously knowing you live in just about the least diverse area in Michigan.

Tell you what, come on down during the week sometime. I'll take you shopping in the evening at the Save A Lot on Warren and Grand River. We'll have dinner at The Midwest Grille near the Davison and Linwood, then top it off with after dinner cocktails and entertainment at the Player's Lounge.

We'll repeat the exercise a few times, THEN you may be able to weigh in with a bit more knowledge.

My sister used to work out of the Michigan Bell (now AT&T) building near that intersection!

Since you're referencing that area, ever have pizza at the real Shields Bar? Don't know if it's even open now, but 'back in the day' it was pretty good!

[jadednihilist]

Long time lurker, first time poster here - and my apologies in advance for making this a long post.

bmw, I appreciate you dedicating a thread towards discussions on race because this is a much needed conversation. Since race is ultimately one of the most polarizing and vitriolic topics that separate much of our politics, it's my sincere hope that genuine, honest open discussions will help us overcome our differences.

For the interest of full disclosure if not already obvious, my political ideology leans solidly left of Biden. However, I do my best to respect differences in opinion and differences in political philosophies. I try to keep my debate in the spirits of discussion and learning upon my own reflections from reading, consumption of news and podcasts, as well the conversations I have with others. I hope my posts get rightfully criticized - and in return I will try to stick to the substance and avoid ad hominem attacks. I want to make sure I participate in healthy (which can also be intense), but constructive dialogue.

Race, too, is a topic I obsess over because of how pervasive and ugly its been over the course of our history. I am a product of two cultures - my mom being a white American, and my dad an immigrant from Mexico. I've also lived in both the US and Mexico. The differences in both cultures leaves me thinking about cultural norms no matter where I go, because these cultural norms require serious adaptation on my part.

For many non-whites, or mixed people like myself, (I'm happy to provide resources either in DMs or in this thread if there's interest), race is on the forefront of our minds because our life experiences differ so much from that of people who are white. In this view, there is no question that American society has evolved from a white power structure, dating back from slavery and the genocide of indigenous nations that once occupied this land, and lasting beyond the civil rights movement of the 60s and continuing today. Post civil rights, the prevailing philosophy that we were taught, and one that I once subscribed to is being color-blind, in which we attempt to achieve a fair and just society by looking past our racial differences. In the book White Fragility (there are good and bad points in this book, but this is one point I do like), Robin DiAngelo writes that color-blindness derives from Dr. King's the infamous line from the I Have A Dream speech where he says that "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." While we all agree that this is the goal and the ideal, she argues that Dr. King never intended this line to be the means to reaching the "promised land," but what it would ultimately look like when our society puts in the hard work to overcome the historical inequities along racial lines.

Race is a social construct that has no proven basis in our biology and genetics. However, race has long justified abuses going back several centuries. As much as we aspire to color-blindness, none of us truly are. We instead have come up with seemingly objective, but in reality still arbitrary metrics to assess achievement that adversely affect non-whites. The easiest example, of many, that I can think of are standardized tests, such as the SAT as a predictor of a student's readiness for college. Students who have educated and relatively affluent parents are advantaged over those without access to the same resources as tutoring and courses dedicated towards understanding how to take the test. And while the SAT shows good predictive skill of aptitude of the students in the privileged group, it poorly predicts the aptitude of students from under-resourced backgrounds and effectively bars them the opportunity to attend our better colleges and universities. In the book Undermining Racial Justice, internal studies from the University of Michigan concerned about black student dropout rates in the 1970s and beyond showed a fuzzy relationship between their SAT scores and their GPA at the University of Michigan. About half of the dropouts had a GPA larger than a 3.0 and cited the overall hostile climate and perceived lack of belonging as the primary reasons they left. This evidence has been corroborated at several other institutions, and as a result, many institutions are weighing SAT scores less than they once did, or removing them from consideration altogether in search of other better metrics.

Color-blind policy has resulted in a world in which nearly socioeconomic statistic of well-being correlates strongly with race - and in many communities, especially in Southeast Michigan, remain quite segregated. Each of these metrics are perceived as race neutral, such as crime rates, credit scores, health and disease prevalence, and the segregation also allows us to correlate these statistics to geographical regions, such as zip codes. Thus, it's the belief in the current racial movement, as well as in Dr. King's speech and the Lyndon B. Johnson's Kerner Commission that we have to acknowledge and confront, and not hide from, race before we can become a more just society. It's easy not to think about marginalization (broadly speaking: socioeconomically, racially, sexuality/gender, religion, disabilities, etc.) if you're well off, but it's much harder when you're in the group that is struggling. That marginalization tends to strengthens your personal identification with that group, and shapes the lens in which you view the world.

A constructive way that I think about this is that race should not need negative connotations. No race is inherently superior or inferior, because race is not a natural existence. The same applies to our cultures - they aren't better, they've just evolved under a different set of circumstances. We can't think of racism as a pejorative or an insult to one's character, because racism is not inherently about hatred (although a subset of racism does include hatred). Rather, racism (and the other isms) is more about a broader infrastructure that fosters barriers in access to power, achievement along racial lines. This is different than prejudice, which evolve merely from stereotypes, or discrimination, which deals exclusively with exclusion; neither of which are okay or justifiable either, but merely different in a nuanced, yet meaningful way.

So my TL;DR take away from this post is this: Vitriolic discussions of racism aren't ever going to go away until we are able to lower the temperature, step away from our pride, let down our guards, and have sincere, good faith discussions of race with each other. We all need to do better to understand each other and what's shaped our views -- and be more trusting of each other so that we can address the topics that exposes our sense of vulnerability.

[Bryce]

Since you're referencing that area, ever have pizza at the real Shields Bar? Don't know if it's even open now, but 'back in the day' it was pretty good!

The only Shield's I've been to in Detroit is on Woodward across from the DIA. Great Place and an easy walk from WSU campus.

[Bryce]

Long time lurker, first time poster here - and my apologies in advance for making this a long post.

Nice first post jadednihilist. I would submit that what many people refer to as racism has much less to do with skin color and more to do with nationality, behavior and culture.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the Dominican Republic. Dominican's are VERY racist toward Haitians even though they share a common pigmentation.

[TC Talks]

Long time lurker, first time poster here - and my apologies in advance for making this a long post.

Nice first post jadednihilist. I would submit that what many people refer to as racism has much less to do with skin color and more to do with nationality, behavior and culture.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the Dominican Republic. Dominican's are VERY racist toward Haitians even though they share a common pigmentation.

Try Eastern Europe sometime.

So would you say (based on your attempt at humor) that you have a bias against impoverished neighborhoods or African Americans?

If I'm honest, much of your criticism BLM related violence could go either way.

If I have bias, it's probably more against ignorance than white people.

[jadednihilist]

Nice first post jadednihilist. I would submit that what many people refer to as racism has much less to do with skin color and more to do with nationality, behavior and culture.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the Dominican Republic. Dominican's are VERY racist toward Haitians even though they share a common pigmentation.

Thank you, Bryce. I definitely think there is truth to that. In Mexico, while racism exists against those with a stronger indigenous lineage, the sharpest divides are along class lines. The current president, AMLO, exploited the extreme classism to build his movement and mandate in a way that I feel is quite harmful to the country. In this case, the "fifis" (the affluent/capitalist classes) are perceived to be the enemy of the people.

I think the commonality between racism, classism, nationalism (like the DR vs Haiti example you provided) is our inherent desire to justify power structures from arbitrary traits that are beyond any of our control. Europe's aristocracy and royal classes' power was justified as them being living examples of divinity for the masses. India justified their hierarchal caste system as being derived from a meritocratic reincarnation. Other countries are sharply divided on the premise of religion, despite common heritage. We've got many divisions here, but race has consistently led to our greatest conflicts. We've tried several ideas dating back to at least the 1500s, most notably the widely discredited theory of eugenics, to justify our racial hierarchies.

These power structures are also reinforced by our innate desire (evolved from our necessary survival instincts) for our brain to categorize everything as some degree of good or bad/harmful to our interests. However, we have a long history of failing to accurately classify things, which has resulted in injustices and atrocities.

[Matt]

TCT is still calling people with different political opinions racists. Is it time to cancel TCT?

[TC Shuts Up]

There are two things going on with TC Talks regarding his recent hatred of White people, and they are deeply rooted in his past.

1. REAL White Privilege from growing up in one of the most prestigious Zip Codes in the state. Not some 2010 era NEW DEFINITION INVENTION. REAL White Privilege.

2. REAL White GUILT from his background. Feeling guilty about his past.

Some of us here and in TC Talks' circle grew up in more MODEST Subdivisions and Zip Codes, not exactly suffering, but were not spoiled in their childhood. Their parents grew up in the GREAT DEPRESSION. Their parents saved their pennies. Their parents likely kept them more in line. I only know SOME facts, not all, but the rest is REASONABLE SPECULATION.

[Matt]

Let the record show, TCT is a white man, an angry one at that...

[TC Talks]

Let the record show, TCT is a white man, an angry one at that...

You and TCSU make quite a couple. I'm sorry if the truth hurts either of you but sometimes you have to own your feelings.

When it comes to social injustice, I most certainly am angry that organizations like Proud Boys exist and are embraced by the Republicans.

Ya got me...

[Matt]

Let the record show, TCT is a white man, an angry one at that...

You and TCSU make quite a couple. I'm sorry if the truth hurts either of you but sometimes you have to own your feelings.

There is no team effort. Your issues are your issues. It might be more advisable for you to seek professional assistance.

[TC Talks]

TCSU is merely just another user ID for of another posters. I really don't pay too much attention to the psychobabble he's spews.

You on the other hand are a little different. It bothers you when you're on the wrong side of a discussion, and when you are you try to use any weapon you can. This would be another example of exerting pressure.

Calling someone a racist or misogynist or bigot is not a violation of TOS. Doxing is, using language that is clearly out of bounds is, and threatening a member with physical violence is.

Ultimately neither of us own this site, but fighting over politics is just going to remain what it is. And for the record the offer to buy you a beer if you're ever up here still remains open.

[Matt]

Doxing is, using language that is clearly out of bounds is, and threatening a member with physical violence is.

Ultimately neither of us own this site, but fighting over politics is just going to remain what it is. And for the record the offer to buy you a beer if you're ever up here still remains open.

I just want to state for the record that I'm anti-doxxing and wouldn't threaten physical violence on someone here, or in person. I don't think that was a reference to me, but I just wanted to make it clear. I did call out the individual for the doxxing that happened.

One of these days I may hold you to that beer. I just wish you would stop with the labels. That is all.