Thoughts - Some political, some not

[Matt]

I mentioned that I had a post that had been marinating in my head for quite some time. I think I initially envisioned it as an exercise in trying to strongly and eloquently make a point about the degradation of societal norms over the last several decades in this country, and the resulting chaos it has caused for all of us. As I've thought about it tonight though, I've decided to use bullet points to get my thoughts out there:

-Our political system is broken. This is not the fault of one political party or one president. I do think the discourse has gotten worse progressively from Clinton to Bush to Obama to Trump. It is likely to continue with our 46th president as well, whether that is in four months or four years and four months. I don't know how we as a nation get out of this mess.

-From a personality standpoint, Donald Trump and Gretchen Whitmer are almost mirror copies of each other. The only real difference is the partisan label next to their name. It is comical (or maybe sad is a better word) to see someone vehemently defend one of them and then go just as hard at the other. They are polarizing figures, but in an environment where we've been split into partisan teams, it's just really pathetic.

-I do think that spaces like this can be helpful for positive discourse and true discussion of differing viewpoints IF there are will participants on all sides. We've struggled mightily with acting like mature adults here for quite some time. I'm not excepting myself from that statement either. We need to be better - I don't think we need to chase people off - we just all need to be better. I'm not advocating that we always need to agree, but rather, we need to work on disagreeing more respectfully.

-On the last point, you're not clever or provocative if you're constantly typing "nigger" or "faggot" or any other term that denigrates anyone else. It is well noted that I'm quite fond of the word "cunt", so I'll acknowledge this is a little bit hypocritical. I'm going to try to be better about that, but I'll make no promises.

-I would be remiss if I didn't specifically point out that the vitriol and disgusting name calling that has been hurled at MCRF specifically is absolutely abhorrent. The innuendos being propagated by some that are disingenuous at best and outright manipulated at worst are very offensive. We shouldn't tolerate this type of nonsense as a community.

-There have been many calls for MW to more aggressively moderate this space. I get the rationale, but I would remind others that this is a hobby for MW, and he's ran this forum for about two decades (I believe the original site came about in 2000). We're fortunate that he continues to be willing to take a financial loss to host this site.

-Finally, I speak to all of the people that have stepped away or specifically have pondered stepping away. Please reconsider. Help us make this place a better place for all. And to the people who have counter-productive posts - please take some time to self-reflect and determine if being nasty on here is really bringing you joy.

As I am about to hit send, I'm fully prepared for extreme mocking. I hope it doesn't happen, but as I said, I'm prepared. I have relatively thick skin.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

It needed be said. Thank you. And if you and I can get along even though we disagree on probably 80% of all issues, other people can at least try.

If we read your posts in front of your friends, what would they say about you(general you)?

[Honeyman]

Bravo, Matt.

I have been attempting to elucidate similar sentiments, but have not been near so eloquent. But before you even think it, I blame the booze consumed before posting and not the college of higher learning.

[Lester The Nightfly]

Good post.

[MotorCityRadioFreak]

By the way, I miss the old days when listen buddy and Keith B were trolls. Everyone, no matter their stances, told them to play in traffic.

Yes, when Matt and I first joined the board, there were a couple lefties who were downright rude. But they eventually settled down or left the board.

[UP906]

You are still all wrong.

Just sayin...

[Rate This]

Good post.... it’s the folks who are new here and make posting 2+2=4 a partisan exercise that make this hard.

[Turkeytop]

Wow.

Should make us all try to do better.

[bmw]

-Finally, I speak to all of the people that have stepped away or specifically have pondered stepping away. Please reconsider. Help us make this place a better place for all.

I may pop in from time to time, though not nearly as frequently as I used to. The break was nice. I've briefly checked this forum 2 or 3 times the past month and it looks as toxic as ever, so I've been reluctant to return. If I have a thought or something I really want to say I may post it here but my overall level of interaction with the "community" here will be significantly less.

-Our political system is broken. This is not the fault of one political party or one president. I do think the discourse has gotten worse progressively from Clinton to Bush to Obama to Trump. It is likely to continue with our 46th president as well, whether that is in four months or four years and four months. I don't know how we as a nation get out of this mess.

I have several theories on this. While there were certainly tensions between the 2 political parties during the latter half of the Clinton era over the attempt at impeachment, I think that the modern-day decline we see in political discourse can be traced back to the hanging chads in the 2000 election. Democrats never really viewed GW Bush as having legitimately won the presidency, and that opinion of illegitimacy was always an undertone of political discourse throughout his 8 years as President (except immediately after 9/11 which I'll discuss later).

While this wasn't the universal view among Republicans in 2008 when Obama won, there was a segment of the party who viewed Obama as illegitmate, albeit for different reasons. And even those who viewed him as a legitimate winner fought him every step of the way over significant ideological disagreements. McConnell's now infamous "one term president" line certainly didn't help.

Fast forward to Trump, and we have the same problem - Democrats (and even some so-called Republicans) view Trump as illegitimate because he lost the popular vote by a significant margin. To this day, most Democrats have never accepted his victory, and have used every single trick in the book to try to get rid of him early. And now you're seeing their frustration over their failure to do so boil over into violence and division.

The bottom line is, the person sitting in the White house for now 20 years has always been viewed by a significant chunk of the population as holding that seat illegitimately. And I don't have particularly high hopes for 2020's election in this regard either. If Trump does win, he will almost certainly lose the popular vote again, and if Biden wins, Trump has already laid the groundwork for his supporters to blame mail-in voting.

Now back to the one exception I mentioned earlier - 9/11. One thing that has historically united this country is uniting against a foreign threat. Since 9/11, we've been living in relatively peaceful times, at least in terms of being directly attacked on our homeland by foreign enemies.

The solution? The stark political differences between different regions of this country lead me back to something RT and I discussed some time back in this forum: breaking the US up into several smaller countries. I don't see any other solution. Congressional term limits might help, and perhaps even changing the Presidency to one 6-year trom from two 4-year terms could help, but neither of these ideas will ever be implemented.

[TC Talks]

This is my second day on the forum in 18 days. There are certain threads where 80% of the posts are on ignore.

I am looking for an intellectual arm wrestle, and those members with any horsepower are largely gone.

I have focused my energies toward getting the(insert deplorable activity here) village idiot into seclusion for the remaining days he has left before hell.

It should be a bumpy political season. Maybe the Republicans can close all the roads on election day as an encore to ensuring my bills arrive 2 weeks late.

In the meantime, I will check in every so often to deliver my brand of political whiplash. Let's all hope that Qnon is a hoax for the ignorant.

[Deleted User 9015]

I stepped away from this place for a good 5 years I would say, and I have to say it really isn't that much different.

When I left, there was a user who would copypaste verbatim from articles arguments that he was claiming as his own, a guy who was such a religious fundamentalist that he championed giving a car to a child to save her virginity, and a dude who would talk openly about wanting to assault the president at the time. Like when I saw this stuff, I saw I read the room wrong and realized this is a place to goof off at, no one here should be taken seriously.

I come back and those same people are still here, surrounded by troll profiles that honestly, if you're just stepping back up to the plate here, appear to be pretty much the same as the people arguing in earnest. So when I see a thread like this one where OP, someone who is frequently nasty with some of the kinder users here lecturing about the need to be nicer, it comes off as disingenuous. and it doesnt matter if you acknowledge you need to be nicer as well, its still disingenuous.

None of this is "new" or "worse".

The reason that the people who are left here are the ones who are left here is because you people like it this way. You enjoy posting doofy articles written by some blogger who makes pennies, or social media posts from someone who has figured out how to get enough of a following to get idiots to repost their garbage. When you boil down most of the topics here, its mainly bait. Baiting with articles in lieu of a personal hottake. So like, what is the alternative? People reading the article and just responding "oh i never thought about it that way! thank you for this. I will make lezbereal.wordpress.com a bookmark!" No. This board is gonna stay the same/get worse, and sometime soon, the obvious trolls and the people arguing in earnest will be mirror images.

[Matt]

Neckbeard,

I'll bite - who are the "kinder posters" that I am "frequently nasty" to?

[Deleted User 9015]

Neckbeard,

I'll bite - who are the "kinder posters" that I am "frequently nasty" to?

Turkeytop for one. I've seen you throw baseless accusations at the dude that he was a troll account several times for one.

Like if anyone who frequents this part of the forum holds nice guy status, it is him.

[Matt]

Neckbeard,

I'll bite - who are the "kinder posters" that I am "frequently nasty" to?

Turkeytop for one. I've seen you throw baseless accusations at the dude that he was a troll account several times for one.

Like if anyone who frequents this part of the forum holds nice guy status, it is him.

TT and I are good.

[Deleted User 9015]

Neckbeard,

I'll bite - who are the "kinder posters" that I am "frequently nasty" to?

Turkeytop for one. I've seen you throw baseless accusations at the dude that he was a troll account several times for one.

Like if anyone who frequents this part of the forum holds nice guy status, it is him.

TT and I are good.

You say that but you've constantly been a dick to him. So when you ask who you have been nasty to, clearly you've been nasty to him, unless you don't count tossing baseless accusations.