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“Stimulus” bill killed

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audiophile
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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by audiophile » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:27 pm

Vic Doucette wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:52 pm
...
I am greatly disappointed that the public gathering ban does not extend to worship services.

Well because it's Essential:
https://www.essential-church.org/about


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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Rate This » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:48 pm

audiophile wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:27 pm
Vic Doucette wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:52 pm
...
I am greatly disappointed that the public gathering ban does not extend to worship services.

Well because it's Essential:
https://www.essential-church.org/about
That’s was good...

There is talk of a Part 4 to the stimulus coming soon.



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:37 am

In Trump's defense, he didn't guarantee the lifting of any travel or social distancing restrictions by Easter. He said no decisions are going to be made yet, and that it's something "we'll look at" as the date draws nearer. He also discussed the possibility of differing restrictions by geography.

I don't find his comments on this particular point to be unreasonable at all.


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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by TC Talks » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:23 am

It seems like we have another moral dilemma amongst the Conservatives...

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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Rate This » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:22 am

MWmetalhead wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:37 am
In Trump's defense, he didn't guarantee the lifting of any travel or social distancing restrictions by Easter. He said no decisions are going to be made yet, and that it's something "we'll look at" as the date draws nearer. He also discussed the possibility of differing restrictions by geography.

I don't find his comments on this particular point to be unreasonable at all.
Trying to do it County by county would be idiotic. How exactly are they going to stop someone from spreading it out of the county? Road blocks at every exit point Big and small with people Taking temperatures before you can leave?

Such a proposal is aimed at opening the economy by hook or by crook on Easter. Also the underlying message is “it’ll be over soon so get ready to open”. That could potentially cause people locked down when Easter comes to demand that the governors lift the lockdowns which could cause them to cave and start spreading the thing far and wide. Spreading it far and wide could very well exacerbate the economic Issues we are having if there is another wave of infections and things shut down again. That’s why everyone is telling him not to even suggest reopening things and why Fauci said we have to go by the viruses timeline and not some politically motivated one.



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by km1125 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:48 pm

County by county wouldn't be much different than what we have with state-by-state. It's pretty much voluntary now, except for the businesses that are forced to close. You could build a buffer of counties around those critical counties. If Macomb, Oakland and Wayne were "red" counties you could designate all the adjoining counties as "red" too, even though they might not qualify just by their own stats.



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Rate This » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:12 pm

km1125 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:48 pm
County by county wouldn't be much different than what we have with state-by-state. It's pretty much voluntary now, except for the businesses that are forced to close. You could build a buffer of counties around those critical counties. If Macomb, Oakland and Wayne were "red" counties you could designate all the adjoining counties as "red" too, even though they might not qualify just by their own stats.
So now we shut down counties that don't need to be shut down as a buffer? The problem with this is that it relies on voluntary cooperation with it. Can that really ever work if half the people say "can't happen to me" and go about their day?



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by fuzzpower » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:43 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:57 pm
On what do you base your conclusions?
The country is in debt. Printing money means there’s more of it, meaning it’s worth less. That’s fiat money in a nutshell.

If these governors hadn’t shut down large portions of the economy, this wouldn’t have even been considered. How long does this “free money” go on? You know when it does expire, some people will complain that it should be extended. Not to mention, any projected cost of any government program always seems to be lowballed. There’s also the enormous amount of pork spending found in this bill just like so many others over the years.



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:01 pm

The country is in debt. Printing money means there’s more of it, meaning it’s worth less. That’s fiat money in a nutshell.
Printing more money does not make existing money "worthless." It merely dilutes the value of existing money. In this case, we are talking a small fraction of existing currency in circulation.

It's no different than a company issuing new shares of stock. It does not make the existing shares worthless.
If these governors hadn’t shut down large portions of the economy, this wouldn’t have even been considered.
Yeah. We'd just have much larger casualty counts instead and hospitals incapable of serving the ill, regardless of illness. Much better, right?

Some of us value our family members and want to do everything possible to ensure they receive the treatment they need should they fall ill.
How long does this “free money” go on? You know when it does expire, some people will complain that it should be extended.
It "goes on" until the economy returns to normal and COVID-19 infections subside.

People like you were making the same doomsday predictions following TARP and the auto bailouts of 2009. NONE of those doomsday predictions came true, the government recovered much of the money extended to Ford & Chrysler (losses to the Treasury would've been much worse had both companies gone under), and the 2010's as a whole were very good to this nation economically. Our currency remained stable, inflation remained low, and retirement accounts grew at a very nice pace. Annualized returns for the S&P 500, NASDAQ, DJIA, etc. were excellent over that decade.

Had we done nothing, the economic suffering of 2008/2009 would've been much more severe and longer-lived, potentially throwing our country into a depression.
Not to mention, any projected cost of any government program always seems to be lowballed. There’s also the enormous amount of pork spending found in this bill just like so many others over the years.
This isn't an entitlement program in the traditional sense. It is finite. The appropriation is the appropriation for this legislation. Once the money is spent, it's gone. Our legislators will then need to determine if a supplemental spending measure is appropriate.

I wouldn't call the pork in this bill "enormous." It's a fraction of what is contained in the bill. It is indeed unfortunate that it is in there at all, but that's how horsetrading for votes works in Washington D.C.

I salute President Trump for his advocacy for this extremely important legislation!!!


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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by fuzzpower » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Reread the first part of my post. I said worth less, not worthless, which you agreed with. Look at what a dollar was worth 100 years ago compared to now. Hell, look at a dollar from 1970 compared to now. Zimbabwe printed money like crazy too, even had a 100 trillion dollar bill. It was pretty much worthless (and now officially is).

What do you consider subsiding? From previous posts, it sounds like that number has to be zero. What are the odds of that? Even polio and TB still exist.

I disagree. The crash would have been harder, but the recovery would have been better and stronger. You are assuming GM, Ford, and Chrysler would have gone away otherwise. They could have just filed chapter 11 and keep the good parts. Chrysler was bailed out in the past, and failed again. The bond holders got screwed because the government picked winners and losers. They created another bubble.

You really think there wouldn’t be pressure by some to renew this entitlement? Come on MW, I have always pegged you as a smart and reasonable person, but lately you haven’t been even listening to any point of view other than your own. I am- I just don’t agree with them, and I post examples why.

So standing by my principles and beliefs is a bad thing?



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:11 pm

Reread the first part of my post. I said worth less, not worthless, which you agreed with. Look at what a dollar was worth 100 years ago compared to now.
Noted, and I stand corrected.
Hell, look at a dollar from 1970 compared to now. Zimbabwe printed money like crazy too, even had a 100 trillion dollar bill. It was pretty much worthless (and now officially is).
We're not Zimbabwe. Our Gross Domestic Product is far, far stronger. What a terrible comparison (sorry, but I had to say it).

Purchasing power is what matters when making comparison to two different points in time. To compare purchasing power from two very different points in time, you need to adjust for inflation.

For many, total purchasing power today is a bit weaker than in 1975, per the below research article. Look at housing prices when adjusted to same year dollars, for example. However, it is important to note that mortgages at low interest are much more easily attained today than in 1975, which is a big reason why home prices are more expensive in real dollars. When adjusting for differences in interest rates, monthly payments are probably similar.

It also stands to reason that greater availability of land in 1975 is one reason home prices in real dollars were less. As available land shrinks, all else equal, it becomes more expensive.

http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-livi ... s-history/
What do you consider subsiding? From previous posts, it sounds like that number has to be zero. What are the odds of that? Even polio and TB still exist.
No, it doesn't need to be zero. It needs to be a number small enough for health professionals and hospitals to be able to manage on a normal course basis.
I disagree. The crash would have been harder, but the recovery would have been better and stronger.
How the heck do you know the recovery "would have been better and stronger." Provide an empirical example! Otherwise, you're just offering empty rhetoric.
You are assuming GM, Ford, and Chrysler would have gone away otherwise. They could have just filed chapter 11 and keep the good parts. Chrysler was bailed out in the past, and failed again. The bond holders got screwed because the government picked winners and losers. They created another bubble.
Ford didn't require bailout money.

Chrysler failed nearly 30 years after their prior bailout. That's a long time. It's not as if it happened 3 years or even 10 years later! The Daimler-Chrysler partnership was bad. Very bad. That had a lot to do with the second bankruptcy.

The government provided the DIP financing. Without DIP financing (there were no competing proposals for DIP financing presented at First Day Hearings), both the GM case and the Chrysler case likely would've converted to a Chapter 13 quickly. GM filed when it did because it already had a commitment from the government to serve as DIP financier. Remember, GM had been planning for Bankruptcy at least six months prior to actually filing. I suspect similar considerations factored into Chrysler's decision making. The suggestion that it or Chrysler could've easily gotten financing at commercially reasonable terms from someone else is baseless.

You are right to suggest the approximately 30 cents on the dollar that bond holders received looks shitty when compared to the approximately 90 cents on the dollar that the UAW recovered on its claims. This was the trade off for the government infusing money. Had the government not stepped up to the plate, recovery for the bondholders might have been worse than the 30 cents they did receive.

Regarding impact to taxpayers, studies suggest the impact to the Treasury and to state governments would've been worse - had GM & Chrysler liquidated - due to loss of employment and closure of heavy industrial plants.

On the TARP overall, the U.S. treasury actually made a PROFIT of nearly $11 billion.

Articles:
https://www.ali.org/media/filer_public/ ... ontext.pdf

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/ ... 9ee3b27eea

https://theweek.com/articles/454749/aut ... ost-gained

You really think there wouldn’t be pressure by some to renew this entitlement?
Appropriations require legislative approval in both houses and signature by the President. You think a GOP controlled Senate is going to approve an endless money pit? I do not.
You really think there wouldn’t be pressure by some to renew this entitlement? Come on MW, I have always pegged you as a smart and reasonable person, but lately you haven’t been even listening to any point of view other than your own. I am- I just don’t agree with them, and I post examples why.
You are not posting "examples," you are posting ideological talking points that are not substantiated by data. If you have data - great. Share it please. You've failed to do so. Confusing "examples" with beliefs isn't a "bad" thing ("bad" implies malicious intent), it just means your arguments are flimsy.

Thank you for pegging me as a smart and reasonable person, btw. :blink


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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Rate This » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:13 pm

Trump apparently has told people that he wants his signature to appear on the stimulus checks. Normally this is carried out by a civil servant. That sounds like a pretty naked re-election gimmick.



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by audiophile » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Well, you can take that to the bank.


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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:05 pm

Rate This wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:13 pm
Trump apparently has told people that he wants his signature to appear on the stimulus checks. Normally this is carried out by a civil servant. That sounds like a pretty naked re-election gimmick.
Might be the only check with Trump*'s name on it that didn't stand a good chance of bouncing...



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Re: “Stimulus” bill killed

Post by Rate This » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:08 pm

Lester The Nightfly wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:05 pm
Rate This wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:13 pm
Trump apparently has told people that he wants his signature to appear on the stimulus checks. Normally this is carried out by a civil servant. That sounds like a pretty naked re-election gimmick.
Might be the only check with Trump*'s name on it that didn't stand a good chance of bouncing...
Good point... and that’s if he even paid his vendors at all...



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