Trump says …. Get Vaxxed!!!!!

[bmw]

Oh give me a break. We now have 73% of the population at least partially vaccinated (with 62% fully and even the booster rate quickly approaching 20%) and you're going to sit there and tell me that if we could just get those numbers a little higher that everything would magically get better?

Open up your eyes man. The Delta wave has already had more cumulative cases AND has lasted a month longer than the Nov-Jan wave from last year when we had virtually nobody vaccinated. And the total number of people who wound up in the hospital from Delta , despite well over half the population being vaccinated, was only marginally lower than last year's wave when nobody was vaccinated, and the number of people that would up in the ICU from Delta is virtually identical to the number who ended up there a year ago.

Getting 2/3 of the population vaccinated SHOULD HAVE significantly reduced these numbers. But it didn't. That's a rather inconvenient fact, isn't it?

But hey, keep believing that what isn't working really is working.

[Robert Faygo]

It did reduce the numbers dramatically, for the fully vaccinated. People in the ICUs, on vents, and dying are overwhelmingly not fully vaccinated. It's no longer debatable, except it seems by people like you. You are the one with his head in the sand.

The fully vaccinated % in the US on Dec 18 was 62%. Pathetic.

COVID is never going away. Not using the tools we've been given to combat it to the best of our ability is just a crying shame.

[Robert Faygo]

Here's a nice info graphic from Northern Michigan. At this point asymptomatic spread between the fully vaccinated is irrelevant. What is relevant is asymptomatic spread between the fully vaccinated and the unvaccinated. And it didn't have to be that way. And it is no longer (errr... shouldn't be) the responsibility of the vaccinated to worry about the unvaccinated. It's your damn fault for not getting vaccinated. Period.

[bmw]

For your claim to be true (re: that fully vaxed ending up in the ICU were significantly reduced), that would require that the unvaccinated were ending up there at 2-3x the rate they were a year ago, despite the existence of significantly more population immunity than we had a year ago.

You talk like getting 62% vaccinated is peanuts. That's just plain BS. When you cut the number of unvaccinated people from 100% down to 38%, that is supposed to in theory have a squaring effect on reducing the spread (ie, you have only 38% of the population spreading the virus to 38% of the population, or an expected result of only 14.4% the spread as before). And that just hasn't materialized. Not even close.

Please show me where the correlation exists between vaccination rates and hospitalization rates. This degree of vaccination SHOULD have reduced hospitalization rates by way way way more than this.

[Robert Faygo]

See the chart from Munson above. Then go look at similar charts from hospital systems across the county. The percentages are the same.

While certainly not even close to perfect in preventing getting sick, the vaccinations ARE doing their job in keeping people from getting severely ill.

It's no longer a debate. You lost.

[Rate This]

See the chart from Munson above. Then go look at similar charts from hospital systems across the county. The percentages are the same.

While certainly not even close to perfect in preventing getting sick, the vaccinations ARE doing their job in keeping people from getting severely ill.

It's no longer a debate. You lost.

Does that come with a scholarship for him to go learn statistics again?

[bmw]

I'm looking at the TOTAL numbers. I know it is hard to add up cumulative numbers from that graph that I posted, but just upon visual inspection, it appears that total ICU numbers during the Delta wave are basically the same as the wave a year ago. Total hospitalizations are down a bit - the peak is about 30% lower but the time frame is also about a month longer. So the difference here is maybe 10-15%.

The question I'm posing to you (and everybody else, and the point that I've tried to make multiple times now), is how do you reconcile the individual hospital statistics that appear to suggest that it is mostly unvaccinated people in ICU with the fact that the pool of people supposedly susceptible to an ICU admission has fallen from near 100% a year ago down to 38% today, yet total ICU admissions remain unchanged? What you're asking me to accept as an unchallengable fact is that ICU admissions among the unvaccinated are up 260% compared to a year ago. I'm asking why this is the case. When you factor in the squaring effect on spread that I mentioned earlier along with the increased overall population immunity compared to a year ago (herd immunity is supposed to, in theory, also protect the unvaccinated), that number should be FALLING, not going up 260%.

[Rate This]

See the chart from Munson above. Then go look at similar charts from hospital systems across the county. The percentages are the same.

While certainly not even close to perfect in preventing getting sick, the vaccinations ARE doing their job in keeping people from getting severely ill.

It's no longer a debate. You lost.

Regardless of vaccination status:

1. You can get Covid.
2. You can spread Covid.
3. You can die from Covid.
4. As a bonus, you could be one of the more than 10,000 that died from the shot.

Even unvaccinated, you have a more than 98.2% chance of survival.

So there’s a 1.8% chance we can be rid of you?

[Robert Faygo]

I'm looking at the TOTAL numbers. I know it is hard to add up cumulative numbers from that graph that I posted, but just upon visual inspection, it appears that total ICU numbers during the Delta wave are basically the same as the wave a year ago. Total hospitalizations are down a bit - the peak is about 30% lower but the time frame is also about a month longer. So the difference here is maybe 10-15%.

The question I'm posing to you (and everybody else, and the point that I've tried to make multiple times now), is how do you reconcile the individual hospital statistics that appear to suggest that it is mostly unvaccinated people in ICU with the fact that the pool of people supposedly susceptible to an ICU admission has fallen from near 100% a year ago down to 38% today, yet total ICU admissions remain unchanged? What you're asking me to accept as an unchallengable fact is that ICU admissions among the unvaccinated are up 260% compared to a year ago. I'm asking why this is the case. When you factor in the squaring effect on spread that I mentioned earlier along with the increased overall population immunity compared to a year ago (herd immunity is supposed to, in theory, also protect the unvaccinated), that number should be FALLING, not going up 260%.

Unfortunately you are asking a question that cannot be accurately quantified because of the human factor involved. There are a giant number of variables that come into play when a doctor decides to transfer someone to ICU. How many beds are available? What is our patient intake right now? Who is dying tomorrow? Who gets to step down? Who gets priority -- the open heart surgeon patient or the COVID patient that could be in ICU but can hold out in a regular bed (then improves)? How have treatments changed? Is going to COVID ICU something that has a quicker trigger now than it did a year ago?

There is no way to chart this stuff - it varies depending on the doctor, the hospital system, the built-up knowledge base, etc.

Same goes for hospitalizations -- a year ago, there were literally millions of people that walked away from hospitals when told they would have to wait for literally days to get a bed. Thankfully many of them recovered at home. Thankfully the hospital systems adjusted (somewhat) to the demand level and they are able to admit and then discharge people MUCH faster than they did a year ago. Where is the chart on average hospital stay for a COVID patient now compared to a year ago? How long do they stay in ICU compared a year ago? ICU beds are a finite resource ... if you can turn patients over faster, you can admit more and get them the care they need.

Taking care of people in the hospital isn't something that is happening in a test tube or petri dish someplace. Hospitals are seeing more people -- because treatments, procedure, and turnover has changed dramatically. And the vast majority of those that they seeing in ICUs and on vents and crank through the system now are those that are unvaccinated.

None of that is in your charts.

[Rate This]

See the chart from Munson above. Then go look at similar charts from hospital systems across the county. The percentages are the same.

While certainly not even close to perfect in preventing getting sick, the vaccinations ARE doing their job in keeping people from getting severely ill.

It's no longer a debate. You lost.

Regardless of vaccination status:

1. You can get Covid.
2. You can spread Covid.
3. You can die from Covid.
4. As a bonus, you could be one of the more than 10,000 that died from the shot.

Even unvaccinated, you have a more than 98.2% chance of survival.

So there’s a 1.8% chance we can be rid of you?

I’m young, healthy, and take my own precautions. You’ll be putting up with me for a very long time.

How many more inventive usernames can you come up with?

[Honeyman]

See the chart from Munson above. Then go look at similar charts from hospital systems across the county. The percentages are the same.

While certainly not even close to perfect in preventing getting sick, the vaccinations ARE doing their job in keeping people from getting severely ill.

It's no longer a debate. You lost.

Regardless of vaccination status:

1. You can get Covid.
2. You can spread Covid.
3. You can die from Covid.
4. As a bonus, you could be one of the more than 10,000 that died from the shot.

Even unvaccinated, you have a more than 98.2% chance of survival.

So there’s a 1.8% chance we can be rid of you?

I’m young, healthy, and take my own precautions. You’ll be putting up with me for a very long time.

Until MW bans your trolling ass for the fifth time.

[FakeAndyStuart]

The question I'm posing to you (and everybody else, and the point that I've tried to make multiple times now), is how do you reconcile the individual hospital statistics that appear to suggest that it is mostly unvaccinated people in ICU with the fact that the pool of people supposedly susceptible to an ICU admission has fallen from near 100% a year ago down to 38% today

Let's take Rhode Island. With a population of about 1 million people and a one dose vax % of about 85%, that leaves over 150,000 unjabbed Rhode Islanders. At 120 cases per 100,000 population, that's 1200 people. (It's lower right now, closer to 1000. Total cases in Rhode Island since the start of the pandemic is around 200,000. In effect statistically it is possible that EVERY SINGLE case of COVID in RI is with an unvaxxed.

It's probably not the case here (I'm sure a little more research would be enlightening) but this is why I argue with the way you present your data. Covid is not growing 3x the rate in one state vs the other in any way that's related to vaccinations. And there is NO possible argument on the ICU and ventilator numbers. Again, feel free to prove me wrong.

[MWmetalhead]

BMW - part of the answer to your question posed on the prior page, in my opinion, is recent variants - such as Delta - are more contagious and more harmful. That's why hospitalization rates are increasing despite the vaccination percentages having increased with time. If everyone were vaccinated, it is plainly obvious hospitalizations would be a fraction of what they actually are at present.

You are correct that asymptomatic folks are more prone to unwittingly spreading the virus, which creates problems for the unvaxxed crowd, and in turn, our hospitals.

For those who are vaccinated, the risk of dying appears to be one-twelfth of the risk of those unvaccinated. For those who are vaccinated and boosted, death risk appears much lower still, but since most boosters have been administered in just the past 60 days, I think it is still too early to form a definitive conclusion on that front.

A year to 18 months ago, precautions were taken to reduce spread (business shutdowns, mandatory remote learning, sporting events with few or no spectators, no concerts, etc). Most of those restrictions have long since been lifted. Masking is no longer mandatory in many areas and hasn't been mandatory in Michigan for six months now. Mass gatherings are definitely contributing to spread. So, this, too, is part of the answer to your earlier question.

Every person I know or my family knows who has wound up in the hospital from COVID is unvaccinated.

[TC Talks]

Keep in mind most of the UK is vaccinated...

Two new studies suggest that Omicron infections more often result in mild illness, compared with previous variants of the coronavirus, offering hope that the current surge may not be quite as catastrophic as feared, despite skyrocketing caseloads in much of the world.

The research, conducted in Britain and released on Wednesday, indicated that Omicron is less likely to put people in hospitals.

“What you’ve heard is a qualified good-news story,” Dr. Jim McMenamin, incident director for Covid-19 at Public Health Scotland, said at a news briefing at which he and colleagues presented data gleaned from Scottish hospitals.

While the results are heartening, Dr. McMenamin and other experts still warned that hospitals could be flooded with Omicron cases, because the variant transmits so much more than previous ones.

Dr. McMenamin and his colleagues examined Delta and Omicron cases in November and December, looking at how many were admitted to a hospital. They reported that Omicron infections are associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of hospitalization compared to the Delta variant.

Also on Wednesday, a team of researchers at Imperial College London looked at Omicron and Delta cases in the first two weeks of December and saw a smaller reduction in visits to hospitals.

Initial estimates suggest that compared with Delta variant cases, individuals infected with Omicron are 15 to 20 percent on average less likely to turn up in hospitals overall, and 40 to 45 percent less likely to be hospitalized for a night or more.

Paradoxically, though, the researchers also found the Omicron virus is not that much less dangerous than Delta.

Much of the reduction in severity is linked to the fact that Omicron is better at infecting people who have already had a case of Covid. While so-called reinfection with Omicron is much more common than with Delta, these cases are less likely to put people in the hospital.