American Gun Culture

[Deleted User 15924]

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In recent weeks, a North Carolina man saw kids invading his yard and property when their basketball rolled into his yard. His solution - shoot the kids trying to retrieve it.

A New York man saw an unidentified car pull into his remote driveway. His solution - shoot the people in the car.

A Missouri man saw someone he didn't know at his front door. His solution - shoot the unknown person, twice - once in the back.

A Texas man, tired of his neighbors complaining about what he's doing on his own property, comes up with a solution - Go into their house and shoot them all.

In the coming weeks, we'll hear a lot about "stand your ground" and "protect your home." The suspected shooters will claim they felt threatened and scared, and felt the need to "defend themselves". And, in each instance (according the press reports, not any of my personal observation) the supposed "threatening" parties were all unarmed and didn't make any threatening moves or yells.

To my untrained eye, we have returned to the "Wild West" - where John Dutton can get rid of enemies by dropping them off at the "train station" with little fear of discovery or retribution from either the law or the other side. Instead of looking for a mutually agreeable solution it's "shoot first, ask questions later." To me, that's depressing, and the sign of a slowly deteriorating society. Your thoughts?

Although I'm quoting the originating post in this thread, I have read every post. Y'all are on a roll. And this post isn't going to stop that.

But there's a bit of a difference between the examples Stuart gave, and the instances where courts will uphold Stand Your Ground.

The examples Stuart gave are going to jail. I looked at each instance in greater detail. I'm confident each one is going to spend quite the few years behind bars. They were stupid.

But very few people are that stupid. That's the problem with posting what Stuart posted. It's Lumping. It's painting a broad stroke that covers a few stupid people and everyone else that isn't stupid.

There's 300 million guns in America.
Is every homeowner with a gun shooting at every one that knocks on their door after dark? Of course not.

I myself do not own a gun. However, I'll be the first one to say it's probably not a bad idea to have one. Some of you want to dismiss the Second Amendment as not relevant in this day and age. Your right. It's a different world now. A time that's getting crazy. Nefarious people are more brazen than they were even 30 years ago. No matter where you live, you're not really safe anymore.

The choice to be prepared to defend you and your loved ones in your domicile is a wise choice.

[bmw]

But here is what this thread is about.. chain saws, baseball bats and butcher knives are all legal and there Is certainly no risk of the government mandating "chain saw control" or "confiscating your baseball bat." Why did all the upright stand your ground citizens not choose one of these when they felt threatened? Why guns?

Let's not conflate "stand your ground" with any of these examples of what people are doing with guns. Not one of them would even remotely come close to falling under stand your ground.

And you apparently missed my response earlier in this thread where I answered your initial question. I said more people are nuts as the behavior exhibited by the people in question is not rational behavior.

[km1125]

So you are trying to tell me the guy was fed up with cars turning around in his driveway and took a stand? Or someone knocked on someone’s door and had the wrong house and the guy took a stand? It’s fear. It isn’t being fed up. If it were then these people are completely unhinged from the get go even in a vacuum.

Being afraid of being around an object that can kill you instantly without objection isn’t irrational in the slightest by the way. Neither is being fearful of someone openly carrying that you don’t know. A gun is a tool with a singular purpose… killing.

I think the jury is still out on that one.

And yes, being afraid of an inanimate object that can kill you is irrational.

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So you are trying to tell me the guy was fed up with cars turning around in his driveway and took a stand? Or someone knocked on someone’s door and had the wrong house and the guy took a stand? It’s fear. It isn’t being fed up. If it were then these people are completely unhinged from the get go even in a vacuum.

Being afraid of being around an object that can kill you instantly without objection isn’t irrational in the slightest by the way. Neither is being fearful of someone openly carrying that you don’t know. A gun is a tool with a singular purpose… killing.

I think the jury is still out on that one.

And yes, being afraid of an inanimate object that can kill you is irrational.

Personally I don’t like being around them. I have no sympathy for your feeling it’s irrational.

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Just happened by this article in the Washington Post talking about fear and stand your ground laws particularly prevalent on the right regarding supposedly increased crime:
https://apple.news/AdGbTUkygTS28OMbL1K7ITg

[Bryce]

It doesn’t say anything about defending individuals, or your family or the local liquor store or a hoedown.

Could be they thought they already had that covered?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

As Thomas Jefferson once opined in 1776: “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

As to your contention that rising crime rates aren't really happening because property crime and robbery rates have fallen. That doesn't show the whole picture. VIOLENT CRIMES have climbed.

From Year End 2022:

On average, violent crime has climbed by 12 percent in U.S. cities, while property crime has declined by 33 percent since 2010. Robbery rates fell in the average U.S. city by 23 percent, while murder, rape, and aggravated assault all climbed by 25 percent or more.

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It doesn’t say anything about defending individuals, or your family or the local liquor store or a hoedown.

Could be they thought they already had that covered?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

As Thomas Jefferson once opined in 1776: “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

As to your contention that rising crime rates aren't really happening because property crime and robbery rates have fallen. That doesn't show the whole picture. VIOLENT CRIMES have climbed.

From Year End 2022:

On average, violent crime has climbed by 12 percent in U.S. cities, while property crime has declined by 33 percent since 2010. Robbery rates fell in the average U.S. city by 23 percent, while murder, rape, and aggravated assault all climbed by 25 percent or more.

Thing is it’s still vastly down from the 1970’s to 1990’s and folks weren’t leaning out the door, shooting people and then asking questions later when it was much higher.

[FakeAndyStuart]

Let's respond today... and thanks for all your thoughtful, if somewhat misguided posts and comments.

The examples Stuart gave are going to jail. I looked at each instance in greater detail. I'm confident each one is going to spend quite the few years behind bars. They were stupid.

But very few people are that stupid. That's the problem with posting what Stuart posted. It's Lumping. It's painting a broad stroke that covers a few stupid people and everyone else that isn't stupid.

I disagree. Had I grabbed events that happened over a longer period of time, your accusation might have some merit. But all these events happened within days of each other, by people who didn't know each other or have any actual connection except their choice on how to handle a situation. The events themselves lumped together. It doesn't take too much research to read more stories, the Republican who brandished a weapon at his fellow R's when they disagreed with him for example, or the Columbus Ohio father who shot his daughter in their garage before he turned the light on. Shooting first and asking questions later is trending.

As Thomas Jefferson once opined in 1776: “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

I do enjoy the loudness of those who want to scream Second Amendment every time a gun discussion comes up. But let me surprise you - I believe gun control laws in America today are not a good idea and would not work. Like many other disputes in American society today, both sides harden once the discussion comes up. Why can't the NRA-est Senator and the "take away all guns" Representative sit down and chat about this, and admit there is a problem. (And if you don't think there is a problem, that' your problem.)

And yes, being afraid of an inanimate object that can kill you is irrational.

I'm not afraid of a gun. I've enjoyed shooting at target ranges - amazed myself (and the instructor) on handling a .357 for the first time. I'm afraid of the person with a gun in their hand pointing it at me. And that is a very sane and rational fear.

America has about 1.5 guns for every one person in this country.. the country in second place has less than 1/2 gun per person. Just another fact.

[Deleted User 15924]

Let's respond today... and thanks for all your thoughtful, if somewhat misguided posts and comments.

... very few people are that stupid. That's the problem with posting what Stuart posted. It's Lumping. It's painting a broad stroke that covers a few stupid people and everyone else that isn't stupid.

I disagree. Had I grabbed events that happened over a longer period of time, your accusation might have some merit. But all these events happened within days of each other, by people who didn't know each other or have any actual connection except their choice on how to handle a situation. The events themselves lumped together. It doesn't take too much research to read more stories, the Republican who brandished a weapon at his fellow R's when they disagreed with him for example, or the Columbus Ohio father who shot his daughter in their garage before he turned the light on. Shooting first and asking questions later is trending ...

All right.
Let's just say the events you started this thread with happened in a 4 day period.

In a 4 day period, how many people with a gun have someone turn around in their driveway? How many people with a gun have someone knock on their door after dark? I'm thinking hundreds of thousands.

And the story about the daughter isn't really new. I've heard stories like that for 40 years. Son sneaking in a window past curfew, that sort of thing.

I'm not saying this was the case with the daughter. But most instances I've read though the years like what happened in Columbus, the shooter was calling out "Who is it?" and not getting an answer from the loved one they shot.

[FakeAndyStuart]

All right.
Let's just say the events you started this thread with happened in a 4 day period.

In a 4 day period, how many people with a gun have someone turn around in their driveway? How many people with a gun have someone knock on their door after dark? I'm thinking hundreds of thousands.

And the story about the daughter isn't really new. I've heard stories like that for 40 years. Son sneaking in a window past curfew, that sort of thing.

I'm not saying this was the case with the daughter. But most instances I've read though the years like what happened in Columbus, the shooter was calling out "Who is it?" and not getting an answer from the loved one they shot.

So, you think "Nothing to see here folks, move along"
We just let this keep happening?
We just accept the fact that guns are here and people are going to shoot them at each other?

I'm advocating a discussion about this, looking at all sides. If I can paraphrase your argument, you're saying hide your head in the sand, armor your house and vehicle and every man/woman/child for him/herself?

Even Greg Abbott believes there is a problem. His solution - teach 3rd graders how to triage traumatic injuries. No matter how bizarre and horrible that sounds, at least it's admitting there is a problem.