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You Be The Judge

A place to talk about any topic on your mind (non-broadcasting related). General conversation.
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Turkeytop
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You Be The Judge

Post by Turkeytop » Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:57 pm

Grievor - Male, age 32

Job Title - Assembler

Seniority - Five years

Rate of Pay - $24.47/hr

Employee Record - Some disciplinary incidents for absenteeism and lateness Also disciplined for being verbally abusive toward and threatening other employees.

Nature of Grievance - Improper Discharge

Reason for discharge - Insubordination

The Employer - Employs about 60 people at its plant in a small Ontario town, building domestic water heaters, both electric and gas

The foreman asked the employee to stop what he was woking on and to do some clean up work around the shop. Cleaning was a lower rated and lower paying job than the employee's regular job. However, under the terms of the collective agreement the employee would continue to be paid his regular rate of pay

The employee told the foreman that wasn't his job. He told the foreman to get someone else. The foreman insisted he wanted the employee to do the clean up. The employee became angy and told the foreman to go f**k himself he wasn't doing it.

Some time later the foreman took the employee into his office along with a Union Steward and gave him a written warning for insubordination. The employee took the written warning, ripped it up and threw it on the floor. The foreman fired him right on the spot

The Union filed a grievance alleging improper discharge and asked that the employee be reinstated.

Does the grievance succeed?


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

Matt
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Matt » Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:19 pm

It shouldn't. Fuck the little baby boy.


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

Realist
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Realist » Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:27 pm

Yes - didn’t go through progressive discipline. Should have been suspended first with a final warning that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated



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Rate This
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Rate This » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:17 pm

Realist would seem to be correct. In a non-union setting he might be toast.



Circle Seven
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Circle Seven » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:39 pm

Realist wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:27 pm
Yes - didn’t go through progressive discipline. Should have been suspended first with a final warning that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated
Depends. Turkey's post says the employee has a history of disciplinary action.

Before I say what I think, I'll wait until Turkey post, as Paul Harvey used to say "The rest of the story".
If you scroll back and look at past You Be The Judge's, after a few give their opinion, Turkey will sometimes add another tidbit to the case that alters the story somewhat.



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Turkeytop
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Turkeytop » Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:25 am

I met with the Company in an effort to resolve the matter. But they were adamant that they were unwilling to reinstate the employee under any circumstances. So, we took it to Arbitration

In any arbitration involving discipline or discharge, the burden of proof is on the employer. They must prove the employee is guilty of the alleged offense. Once they have established that, then they must show that the level of discipline meted out was appropriate.

Some workplace offenses are viewed as so egregious that an Employer may bypass progressive discipline and immediately discharge an employee. Most notable of these are fighting and theft. Insubordination, depending on the severity can also be treated as such.

In this case, the Company’s lawyer argued that, through his contemptuous behavior, the employee had demonstrated that progressive discipline could not be effective. He had refused to accept a written warning. He had defiantly torn it up.

She argued that the Employer / Employee relationship had been so fundamentally breached that it was beyond redemption. She asked the Arbitrator to uphold the discharge,


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

paul8539
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by paul8539 » Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:56 am

I was fired once on a first offense. They were not clear on what I did wrong. The arbitrator upheld the firing.



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Turkeytop
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Turkeytop » Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:12 am

I was suspended once for insubordination. I accepted it without challenge.

I was insubordinate then and I would be again to that prick.


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

Matt
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Matt » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:51 am

paul8539 wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:56 am
I was fired once on a first offense. They were not clear on what I did wrong. The arbitrator upheld the firing.
Well when you work for a company that once had a jingle that said "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us" and you demean customers that want to make alterations to their whopper, what do you expect?


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

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Rate This
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Rate This » Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:02 am

Matt wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:51 am
paul8539 wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:56 am
I was fired once on a first offense. They were not clear on what I did wrong. The arbitrator upheld the firing.
Well when you work for a company that once had a jingle that said "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us" and you demean customers that want to make alterations to their whopper, what do you expect?
Remind me to support unions and eat at Burger King next time :rolleyes



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TC Talks
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by TC Talks » Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:12 am

I would imagine insubordination at a disciplinary hearing is cause for termination. It sounds like the company is acting in good faith to follow the contract and they wouldn't dig in without a solid chance of winning in arbitration.

The company settles it and he is gone with a bit of cash and a "Not available for rehire" status.


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Matt
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Matt » Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:24 am

Rate This wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:02 am
Matt wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:51 am
paul8539 wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:56 am
I was fired once on a first offense. They were not clear on what I did wrong. The arbitrator upheld the firing.
Well when you work for a company that once had a jingle that said "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us" and you demean customers that want to make alterations to their whopper, what do you expect?
Remind me to support unions and eat at Burger King next time :rolleyes
Ok, literal RT...

It was clear I was taking a shot at this dipshit, misogynist poster.


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

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Rate This
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Rate This » Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:12 am

Matt wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:24 am
Rate This wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:02 am
Matt wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:51 am
paul8539 wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:56 am
I was fired once on a first offense. They were not clear on what I did wrong. The arbitrator upheld the firing.
Well when you work for a company that once had a jingle that said "hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us" and you demean customers that want to make alterations to their whopper, what do you expect?
Remind me to support unions and eat at Burger King next time :rolleyes
Ok, literal RT...

It was clear I was taking a shot at this dipshit, misogynist poster.
I know that. Thanks for taking the bait.



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Turkeytop
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Turkeytop » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:37 pm

The Company had built its case pretty solidly. There was no way the Union could refute the evidence they had presented.

Sometimes, when the grievor is clearly guilty, The Union will ask the Arbitrator to mitigate or lessen the penalty.

There are factors an Arbitrator will consider in mitigation. If this was an isolated incident in the record of an otherwise exemplary employee, that would weigh in his favour, In reality, the grievor had a far from exemplary record.

If an employee was immediately remorseful an Arbitrator would take that into consideration.

This employee expressed his remorse ten weeks later, on the day of the hearing. That can’t be characterized as immediate

But he did say he was remorseful for his actions. He told the hearing he had been under a lot of stress at the time of the incident because he was going through a difficult divorce and a custody battle for their two children

He said that without his job he was unable to pay child support for his kids

Hardship is another factor an Arbitrator will consider.

The guy had never been to arbitration before. The day before the hearing he called me asking how he should dress. "Do I have to wear a suit and tie?"

I told him that wouldn't be necessary. I told him to just look respectable.

He came to the hearing in jeans and a tee shirt. The sign on the front of his shirt read "If you don't like my attitude, eat shit."


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

Matt
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Location: Where Ben Zonia couldn't cut it

Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Matt » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:45 am

My first reply looks like it was on the mark...


What's more pathetic: harassing an old man who is paying to do a radio show or supporting a grifter like Trump?

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