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Tesla and Other EVs

A place to talk about any topic on your mind (non-broadcasting related). General conversation.
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moldyoldie
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Tesla and Other EVs

Post by moldyoldie » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:18 am

Just curious if anyone reading this has had the opportunity to test drive a Tesla vehicle. The only Tesla "gallery" currently in Michigan is located at the posh Somerset Collection in Troy. I think there's something like twenty EV charging stations in Michigan, mostly concentrated in the Metro Detroit area and none in the UP.

Do any of you drive an all-electric vehicle as opposed to a hybrid? What are your impressions vis-à-vis traditional ICE vehicles?


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- Sydney J. Harris

km1125
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by km1125 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:35 pm

I have. They are quick, no doubt about it. They have a cool interface in the vehicle, plus a lot you can (or need to) do from your phone, so if you like that gimmicky-cool stuff, they have that. Unless you're paying for the high-end models, don't expect the look-and-feel of a high-end car, even though you're going to be paying the same $$.

They are still more expensive to drive and own though, than a comparable ICE-based car. Depending on where you live and the cost of electricity and gas, it can be a LOT more or marginally more.

If you're looking for practical or economical, they're not there yet. But if you want to spend extra $$ for "cool", go for it.



FET-500
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by FET-500 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:57 am

Fast, expensive and built like a shit box.

Elon was shipping partially assembled cars that were being finished by dealers.

Building automobiles is hard.

Building good automobiles is really hard; I believe Tesla was reporting a 40% Rework rate for the Tesla 3.



I look forward to the future of EV but my '05 K-24 Accord still runs like a top.



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craig11152
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by craig11152 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:04 am

km1125 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:35 pm
They are still more expensive to drive and own though, than a comparable ICE-based car. Depending on where you live and the cost of electricity and gas, it can be a LOT more or marginally more.
That is not true. In fact a 2018 study at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute suggests on average they are less than half as much.
They are certainly more expensive to buy than a comparable ICE car but as far as the cost of driving day to day and month to month EV's are cheaper. They have way less routine maintenance than an ICE car. Comparing gas to electricity the US department of energy has a comparison chart that updates regularly.
https://www.energy.gov/articles/egallon ... -important

ICE cars have a lot more moving parts that wear out and need maintenance or replacement.


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craig11152
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by craig11152 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am

I've noticed more Tesla's around Ann Arbor recently than ever before. Maybe because I am paying attention and/or I am driving a school bus during morning "rush hour" and see more cars in general.
A year ago in August my wife and I bought a new car. We are in a place where we had to be very price conscious so we bought a Kia Rio for about $16,000. I would have loved to buy a Chevy Bolt but at $36,000+ I could have had 2 Kia Rio's.
If I won the lottery I would have his and hers EV cars for everyday use. Not sure if I would also have an ICE car for longer trips, which we rarely take, or just rent an ICE car for those. Probably buy one since if I won the lottery we might take more long trips.


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km1125
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by km1125 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:08 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:04 am
km1125 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:35 pm
They are still more expensive to drive and own though, than a comparable ICE-based car. Depending on where you live and the cost of electricity and gas, it can be a LOT more or marginally more.
That is not true. In fact a 2018 study at the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute suggests on average they are less than half as much.
They are certainly more expensive to buy than a comparable ICE car but as far as the cost of driving day to day and month to month EV's are cheaper. They have way less routine maintenance than an ICE car. Comparing gas to electricity the US department of energy has a comparison chart that updates regularly.
https://www.energy.gov/articles/egallon ... -important

ICE cars have a lot more moving parts that wear out and need maintenance or replacement.
No, it is true. When you factor in all the costs (including purchase price premium), the ICE is still less expensive for transportation. I've seen numerous comparisons and those favorable to an "e-car" always are missing come of the costs associated. For electric, they don't use an "all-in" cost, they just use the "generation" charges or use a very low time-of-day rate, which is the same as using just the best-case MPG for a car vs using a real average.

For maintenance costs, yes there are fewer maintenance issues for an EV, most notably for brakes (also applies to hybrids) and oil changes. But how much do these really cost over time? These costs pale in terms of the difference in purchase price and if you keep the car past a certain date (which is yet to be determined) you need to replace the EV battery, which can be a VERY substantial cost, overshadowing ALL the ICE maintenance costs for a 200,000 mile vehicle. Sure, there are EVs out there that have several hundred thousand miles, but they don't have YEARS of aging, which is what kills batteries. Let's see what the maintenance costs are for an 11 year EV, because that is the current average age of consumer vehicles.



km1125
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by km1125 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am
I've noticed more Tesla's around Ann Arbor recently than ever before. Maybe because I am paying attention and/or I am driving a school bus during morning "rush hour" and see more cars in general.
A year ago in August my wife and I bought a new car. We are in a place where we had to be very price conscious so we bought a Kia Rio for about $16,000. I would have loved to buy a Chevy Bolt but at $36,000+ I could have had 2 Kia Rio's.
If I won the lottery I would have his and hers EV cars for everyday use. Not sure if I would also have an ICE car for longer trips, which we rarely take, or just rent an ICE car for those. Probably buy one since if I won the lottery we might take more long trips.
WAIT!! You last post said it was cheaper for an EV!! Why did you waste the money on that Kia??

Oh, wait... asked and answered in the same post! WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT (aka "winning the lottery"), EVs can make sense!! :)

I don't have ANY problem with folks buying EVs for whatever reason they want - just because they think it's "cool" or "new tech" or "I like the style" or "I want the status symbol" (even though they might not admit that), or "because it's wicked fast 0-60". If they have the money and can afford it, then spend some of that cash and enjoy it!!!

However, it does get under my skin when they try and justify it because it's the "economical choice" or "it's green", because it's neither.



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audiophile
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by audiophile » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:19 pm

I basically got a new pre-owned car, H*** interior, and it weights 3,408 lbs. Maiden voyage down I-75 with cruise set at 75 MPH...58 MPG. Made a few city runs in city on same tank...pump-to-pump fillup 52 MPG.

I can buy 4 of these for price of one Tesla.


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craig11152
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by craig11152 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:37 pm

km1125 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm
craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am
I've noticed more Tesla's around Ann Arbor recently than ever before. Maybe because I am paying attention and/or I am driving a school bus during morning "rush hour" and see more cars in general.
A year ago in August my wife and I bought a new car. We are in a place where we had to be very price conscious so we bought a Kia Rio for about $16,000. I would have loved to buy a Chevy Bolt but at $36,000+ I could have had 2 Kia Rio's.
If I won the lottery I would have his and hers EV cars for everyday use. Not sure if I would also have an ICE car for longer trips, which we rarely take, or just rent an ICE car for those. Probably buy one since if I won the lottery we might take more long trips.
WAIT!! You last post said it was cheaper for an EV!! Why did you waste the money on that Kia??

Oh, wait... asked and answered in the same post! WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT (aka "winning the lottery"), EVs can make sense!! :)

I don't have ANY problem with folks buying EVs for whatever reason they want - just because they think it's "cool" or "new tech" or "I like the style" or "I want the status symbol" (even though they might not admit that), or "because it's wicked fast 0-60". If they have the money and can afford it, then spend some of that cash and enjoy it!!!

However, it does get under my skin when they try and justify it because it's the "economical choice" or "it's green", because it's neither.
I didn't say it was cheaper for an EV. I said to quote myself "They are certainly more expensive to buy than a comparable ICE car but as far as the cost of driving day to day and month to month EV's are cheaper."
I never said they were cheaper to buy. I was questioning part of your comment that "They are still more expensive to drive and own" If you had said they are more expensive to own I wouldn't argue. But you said they are more expensive to drive as well sighting electricity verses gas and that part is not true.
I don't mind a spirited discussion but I don't have the desire or patience to fight you over what I said, what I didn't say and what you want to pretend I said. So quote me accurately and within context and we can continue otherwise...
EV's are more expensive to buy.
EV's are cheaper to maintain.


I no longer directly engage trolls

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craig11152
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by craig11152 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:45 pm

km1125 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm

WAIT!! You last post said it was cheaper for an EV!! Why did you waste the money on that Kia??

Oh, wait... asked and answered in the same post! WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT (aka "winning the lottery"), EVs can make sense!! :)
Our budget was $16,000 or less. That puts at the cheapest cars made. It has nothing to do with "WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT"
It's what WE CAN AFFORD. I am 67 and my wife is 62. Short of the lottery we can't but ANY CAR for $36,000. I'm not ashamed of it it's just a fact. I also couldn't afford any ICE SUV's.


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km1125
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by km1125 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:28 pm

craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:37 pm
km1125 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm
craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am
I've noticed more Tesla's around Ann Arbor recently than ever before. Maybe because I am paying attention and/or I am driving a school bus during morning "rush hour" and see more cars in general.
A year ago in August my wife and I bought a new car. We are in a place where we had to be very price conscious so we bought a Kia Rio for about $16,000. I would have loved to buy a Chevy Bolt but at $36,000+ I could have had 2 Kia Rio's.
If I won the lottery I would have his and hers EV cars for everyday use. Not sure if I would also have an ICE car for longer trips, which we rarely take, or just rent an ICE car for those. Probably buy one since if I won the lottery we might take more long trips.
WAIT!! You last post said it was cheaper for an EV!! Why did you waste the money on that Kia??

Oh, wait... asked and answered in the same post! WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT (aka "winning the lottery"), EVs can make sense!! :)

I don't have ANY problem with folks buying EVs for whatever reason they want - just because they think it's "cool" or "new tech" or "I like the style" or "I want the status symbol" (even though they might not admit that), or "because it's wicked fast 0-60". If they have the money and can afford it, then spend some of that cash and enjoy it!!!

However, it does get under my skin when they try and justify it because it's the "economical choice" or "it's green", because it's neither.
I didn't say it was cheaper for an EV. I said to quote myself "They are certainly more expensive to buy than a comparable ICE car but as far as the cost of driving day to day and month to month EV's are cheaper."
I never said they were cheaper to buy. I was questioning part of your comment that "They are still more expensive to drive and own" If you had said they are more expensive to own I wouldn't argue. But you said they are more expensive to drive as well sighting electricity verses gas and that part is not true.
I don't mind a spirited discussion but I don't have the desire or patience to fight you over what I said, what I didn't say and what you want to pretend I said. So quote me accurately and within context and we can continue otherwise...
EV's are more expensive to buy.
EV's are cheaper to maintain.
You're arguing against yourself. If it's cheaper to run then eventually the purchase price doesn't matter, it will be cheaper.

I did say "drive and own" because you (or somebody) has to buy it in order to be able to drive it, so purchase price matters.

The .gov link you posted shows how erroneous and misleading that data is. They are assuming and comparing a 26MPG highway car with and EV that uses 326w/mi and an electric cost of $0.12/kWh.

In Michigan, the rate is $0.18/kWh, so that's a 50% error right there. Plus, the average for a COMPARABLE car to the current slate of available EVs would be more like a 35-45MPG highway car, so there's another 50% error. Now, the effective cost to drive each mile is almost the same, or equivalent to about $2.25/gal gas.

EVs are cheaper to maintain if you never have to buy a battery and if you live in a low-cost electric state or get your power for free.



FET-500
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by FET-500 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:05 pm

Cheaper to maintain? Read up on what is going on with flash memory. Failure is said to be inevitable and there are no parts.



FET-500
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by FET-500 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:29 pm

km1125 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:28 pm
craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:37 pm
km1125 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:10 pm
craig11152 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:21 am
I've noticed more Tesla's around Ann Arbor recently than ever before. Maybe because I am paying attention and/or I am driving a school bus during morning "rush hour" and see more cars in general.
A year ago in August my wife and I bought a new car. We are in a place where we had to be very price conscious so we bought a Kia Rio for about $16,000. I would have loved to buy a Chevy Bolt but at $36,000+ I could have had 2 Kia Rio's.
If I won the lottery I would have his and hers EV cars for everyday use. Not sure if I would also have an ICE car for longer trips, which we rarely take, or just rent an ICE car for those. Probably buy one since if I won the lottery we might take more long trips.
WAIT!! You last post said it was cheaper for an EV!! Why did you waste the money on that Kia??

Oh, wait... asked and answered in the same post! WHEN MONEY IS NO OBJECT (aka "winning the lottery"), EVs can make sense!! :)

I don't have ANY problem with folks buying EVs for whatever reason they want - just because they think it's "cool" or "new tech" or "I like the style" or "I want the status symbol" (even though they might not admit that), or "because it's wicked fast 0-60". If they have the money and can afford it, then spend some of that cash and enjoy it!!!

However, it does get under my skin when they try and justify it because it's the "economical choice" or "it's green", because it's neither.
I didn't say it was cheaper for an EV. I said to quote myself "They are certainly more expensive to buy than a comparable ICE car but as far as the cost of driving day to day and month to month EV's are cheaper."
I never said they were cheaper to buy. I was questioning part of your comment that "They are still more expensive to drive and own" If you had said they are more expensive to own I wouldn't argue. But you said they are more expensive to drive as well sighting electricity verses gas and that part is not true.
I don't mind a spirited discussion but I don't have the desire or patience to fight you over what I said, what I didn't say and what you want to pretend I said. So quote me accurately and within context and we can continue otherwise...
EV's are more expensive to buy.
EV's are cheaper to maintain.
You're arguing against yourself. If it's cheaper to run then eventually the purchase price doesn't matter, it will be cheaper.

I did say "drive and own" because you (or somebody) has to buy it in order to be able to drive it, so purchase price matters.

The .gov link you posted shows how erroneous and misleading that data is. They are assuming and comparing a 26MPG highway car with and EV that uses 326w/mi and an electric cost of $0.12/kWh.

In Michigan, the rate is $0.18/kWh, so that's a 50% error right there. Plus, the average for a COMPARABLE car to the current slate of available EVs would be more like a 35-45MPG highway car, so there's another 50% error. Now, the effective cost to drive each mile is almost the same, or equivalent to about $2.25/gal gas.

EVs are cheaper to maintain if you never have to buy a battery and if you live in a low-cost electric state or get your power for free.
Ok, so it's now apparent that you're not a weed farmer... The "Dynamic Peak Pricing Rate" from DTE, is less than $.04/kWh



km1125
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Re: Tesla and Other EVs

Post by km1125 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:05 pm

FET-500 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:29 pm
Ok, so it's now apparent that you're not a weed farmer... The "Dynamic Peak Pricing Rate" from DTE, is less than $.04/kWh
Show me that that's an "all-in" price, based on total electric bill and total kWh used.

It's not... that's the "generation" charge only.



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