Acceptable registrations in the queue through March 16 at 11:00a ET have now been activated. Enjoy! -M.W.

Terms of Use have been amended effective October 6, 2019. Make sure you are aware of the new rules! Please visit this thread for details: https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... 16&t=48619

CKWW 580 Signal Observations

The technical side of broadcasting. Think IBOC is a sham? Talk about it here! How about HDTV? Post DX reports here as well.
User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:22 pm

You use to be able to hear CKWW as far as Saginaw, even with 50000 watt WTCM on the air. Now people are having problems close by in Oakland and Macomb Counties. I'm curious what's going on. Does anyone know? If they are operating with a Canadian STA, say 125 watts nondirectional, it seems like places Northwest and Downriver, maybe Toledo, may be hearing it better than usual. Any observations in those areas? No one else on either side of the border covers their demographic well.

Image

https://fccinfo.com/CMDProEngine.php?ta ... 0&sHours=U

https://www.fccdata.org/?lang=en&facid= ... tabs=66935

125 watts nondirectional would exceed DA operation with 500 watts from about 85 to 330 degrees true, but only 1/5 the field strength in the maximum DA direction.
Last edited by Ben Zonia on Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
ZenithCKLW
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:21 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by ZenithCKLW » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:33 pm

I listen to CKWW so often that I seem to have mentally drawn its pattern without needing to see a map.

CKWW seems to blast in to my location in SW Livonia much stronger than in past years. This didn’t always seem to be the case. Although, I could drive to north of east Livonia or northwest Livonia near 275 and 7 Mile and it’s weak. West Plymouth Twp amd Northville Twp seem even weaker. Livonia seems to be on a border of a null which seems to go northwest across Dearborn, Redford, Livonia, and Novi. You could drive across this “border” and notice a significant difference.

It blasts in at my cottage in Lexington on Lake Huron. It didn’t seem to come in great during a recent visit to Sterling State Park in Monroe, which seems fairly close to the transmitter.



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Ben Zonia » Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:45 pm

Zenith, have you been to Lexington recently? Because of the conductivity next to the rivers and lakes along the path, it still might come in OK. According to official conductivity, the R-L Map shows 2.5 mV/m near Lexington with 500 watts DA. 1/5 would still be 0.5 mV/m, and it would be more according to unofficial conductivity over Lake St. Clair. But in Saginaw, according to M-3, it would fall from 150 uV/m to just 30 uV/m, extreme DXer ground wave range.

Better in NW Livonia would correspond to the hypothetical STA 125 watts nondirectional operation.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
ZenithCKLW
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:21 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by ZenithCKLW » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:43 pm

I haven’t been there in a couple months. I’m not sure of actual measurements, but CKWW was loud there last year, although seemingly weaker than say 5-10 years ago.



User avatar
Turkeytop
Posts: 8854
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:27 pm

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Turkeytop » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:24 pm

London ON in south west Ontario, just inside the purple line on the map, signal is good here during the day

A while ago, I took a trip up into one of the northern Lake Huron counties in Ontario, just about on the blue line on the map. Reception was pretty decent there too.


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

edj
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 8:54 pm

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by edj » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:51 pm

It booms into Port Huron usually. Still mediocre to garbage in Toledo and Ann Arbor.



User avatar
MWmetalhead
Site Admin
Posts: 11873
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:23 am

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:40 pm

Faint signal here in Beverly Hills right now despite little to zero co-channel activity on 580. Reception is noticeably weaker than 800 CKLW. Both stations' audio levels are set far too low.

Bell Media's engineering standards are in the toilet. It is shameful.



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Ben Zonia » Sat Jul 09, 2022 12:31 am

There are places in the major lobe that were twice as strong as WRDT 560, now they're less than half of WRDT. So either their pattern is WAY out of whack, or they're on low power STA. And it's weak all over the major lobe arc, not just a certain direction, so I have to go with the latter. I really like the station, but now I would have to listen online, which is inconvenient in the car.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
MWmetalhead
Site Admin
Posts: 11873
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:23 am

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:32 am

So either their pattern is WAY out of whack, or they're on low power STA.
I think they are undermodulating, and yeah, the pattern is probably out of whack, too.



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Ben Zonia » Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:48 pm

I just noticed that many databases now show CKWW as a CLASS C AM station. I never remember this before. I can't find anywhere where policy has changed in the US or Canada to have allowed a new Class C station on 580 kHz as late as 1964. Only very old grandfathered stations were allowed to be Class C on any Regional Channel. This shows both domestically and internationally as Class C. Class B stations can use 250 to 50000 watts Day and Night, so 500 watts Unlimited on 580 is clearly a Class B operation. Class C AM stations that are not grandfathered operate on Local Channels, 1230, 1240, 1340, 1400, 1450, or 1490. Maybe it's a mistake in the database.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

k8jd
Posts: 603
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:35 pm
Location: Commerce, MI

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by k8jd » Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:45 pm

Seems like the Class C can operate with 1 kW full time nondirectional in the US. on 1230, 1240, 1340, 1400, 1450 and 1490.



User avatar
Ben Zonia
Posts: 2143
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:35 pm
Location: Honor

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Ben Zonia » Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:17 pm

k8jd wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:45 pm
Seems like the Class C can operate with 1 kW full time nondirectional in the US. on 1230, 1240, 1340, 1400, 1450 and 1490.
There are some 1930-1940 era stations that were Class IV on Regional Channels, but those are grandfathered if they still exist. Nothing as recent as 1964.

I'm trying to locate some old databases that show the Class. I think someone was confused because of the 500 watt power level.


"I had a job for a while as an announcer at WWV but I finally quit, because I couldn't stand the hours."

-Author Unknown

User avatar
ZenithCKLW
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:21 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by ZenithCKLW » Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:18 pm

Ben Zonia wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:45 pm
Zenith, have you been to Lexington recently? Because of the conductivity next to the rivers and lakes along the path, it still might come in OK. According to official conductivity, the R-L Map shows 2.5 mV/m near Lexington with 500 watts DA. 1/5 would still be 0.5 mV/m, and it would be more according to unofficial conductivity over Lake St. Clair. But in Saginaw, according to M-3, it would fall from 150 uV/m to just 30 uV/m, extreme DXer ground wave range.

Better in NW Livonia would correspond to the hypothetical STA 125 watts nondirectional operation.
I’m at our house in Lexington this weekend. I brought my GE Superadio II. With both the radio in my truck and the Superadio, CKWW comes in with lots of interference, although I can hear CKWW programming under it all. But this was only after about 7 or 8 PM tonight. I’ll check again tomorrow during the day. Maybe I’ll test out on the lake. Hopefully signal strength will be as strong as I remember.



User avatar
ZenithCKLW
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:21 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by ZenithCKLW » Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:17 pm

Reporting back... CKWW isn't too strong up here during the day either. Crackly and weak.

But I've also noticed FM reception is crap here today. Usually I can take the radio on the beach and get all sorts of stuff across the lake, even as far as Toronto, Erie PA, or Owen Sound. I couldn't even get WTGV today, which is maybe only 20 miles away.



User avatar
Turkeytop
Posts: 8854
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:27 pm

Re: CKWW 580 Signal Observations

Post by Turkeytop » Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:33 pm

ZenithCKLW wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:17 pm
Reporting back... CKWW isn't too strong up here during the day either. Crackly and weak.

But I've also noticed FM reception is crap here today. Usually I can take the radio on the beach and get all sorts of stuff across the lake, even as far as Toronto, Erie PA, or Owen Sound. I couldn't even get WTGV today, which is maybe only 20 miles away.
I was up in the Owen Sound area today. The XYL wasn't along so it gave me a good opportunity to play with the radio during the drive. FM reception was pretty unremarkable up that way too.


I started out with nothing and I still have most of it.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic