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WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

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Ben Zonia
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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Ben Zonia » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:49 pm

Strangely enough, since GVSU took over WGVS 850 in Muskegon, the signal has been better than I can ever remember. It must be that the station is more viable as a noncommercial in today's situation, and they have the money to fix things up. I wonder if that's also a factor in why I haven't heard KOA much anymore. WKNR is just 4.7 kW Night. It used to be 5 kW, though that might have been the nominal power under older rules.


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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Rich F. » Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:15 am

Ben Zonia wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:49 pm
Strangely enough, since GVSU took over WGVS 850 in Muskegon, the signal has been better than I can ever remember. ...
Below is the nighttime groundwave field of WGVS at 1 km radius, using FCC data:

Image



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Radio Chili
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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Radio Chili » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:05 am

Even today WJR has a very good and steady signal in central FL at night! Not a lot of fading and little to no co-channel either! Same down there with WLW. Good enough to enjoy either stations night & overnight programming.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by k8jd » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:08 pm

When I was visiting the FL Keys a few winters ago, there was a strong signal on 760 from, I believe, a station in the Tampa/St Pete area ! Heard many stations in NYC and Chicago though !



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by WOHO » Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:25 pm

WLW must be at an odd distance to Toledo where it's groundwave runs out at the river and skywave doesn't kick in until you're another 25 miles out? Opposite for WSM where 1st hop is sweet.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Radio Chili » Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:02 am

k8jd wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:08 pm
When I was visiting the FL Keys a few winters ago, there was a strong signal on 760 from, I believe, a station in the Tampa/St Pete area ! Heard many stations in NYC and Chicago though !
Yes! The 760 station in Tampa must throw their entire 1kw towards the SSW at night with nearly nothing going North using 4 towers. I'm told that the little station does pretty well in that direction but up here, 30 miles northwest of Orlando WJR prevails without a lick of WLCC to bother them!



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Rich F. » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:33 am

WOHO wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:25 pm
WLW must be at an odd distance to Toledo where it's groundwave runs out at the river and skywave doesn't kick in until you're another 25 miles out?
Below is a panel showing the groundwave and skywave fields of WLW in/near Toledo.

Their groundwave and 50% nighttime skywave signals are fairly equal in field strength there for most of the time, so normally that would be in the "fading zone" around WLW where they interfered with themselves.

Image



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by WOHO » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:08 am

Thanks for the data Rich.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by innate-in-you » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:50 pm

I wish I had a computer and a program for calculating coverage curves.

I wonder what a station on the west coast of Bermuda, with two quarterwave towers, 100kW, 153kHz, beamed at NYC, would look like on a coverage map.

Of course, I know this could never happen.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Rich F. » Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:15 am

For a quick look — the great circle path length between Bermuda and NYC is about 775 miles, and the ground wave from a transmit system on 153 kHz radiating 200 kW along a sea-water path would be about 1.5 mV/m at the far end. That can be a useful signal at receive locations with low enough r-f noise/interference in that band.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by innate-in-you » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:18 am

Wouldn't that array deliver 400kw at NYC?
(when you double the field strength, you fourfold the the ERP, no?).



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Rich F. » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:25 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:18 am
Wouldn't that array deliver 400kw at NYC? (when you double the field strength, you fourfold the the ERP, no?).
Probably you mean radiates rather than "deliver." Your original question concerned a 100 kW transmitter on 153 kHz using a 2-tower directional array (which has a typical peak gain of ~2X in its major lobe).

For those reasons I used 200 kW as the radiated power when applying the engineering equations and methods to calculate the groundwave field at the end of the path along the curved surface of the ocean between Bermuda and New York City.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by paul8539 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:16 pm

WJR: The Great Blowtorch of the Great Lakes.



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by WOHO » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:55 pm

Did WJR ever have a Blaw-Knox diamond tower like WLW, WSM? I thought I saw an old advertisement for the 'Goodwill Station with 50,000 watts' and had a diamond tower on the ad?



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Re: WJR at 500 kW Transmitter Power with Directional Antenna (1950s proposal)

Post by Deleted User 14896 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:08 pm

WOHO wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:55 pm
Did WJR ever have a Blaw-Knox diamond tower like WLW, WSM? I thought I saw an old advertisement for the 'Goodwill Station with 50,000 watts' and had a diamond tower on the ad?
https://detroithistorical.pastperfecton ... 1726680740



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