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Downriver AM transmitters

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ZenithCKLW
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Downriver AM transmitters

Post by ZenithCKLW » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:25 pm

Can someone explain the strategy behind broadcasters placing an AM transmitter downriver, especially in SE Michigan? It seems the 50kw AM radio stations in SE Michigan and Western Ontario have antennas located downriver.
  • 760 downriver since the 30's
  • 800 downriver on the other side since the 40's
  • 950 downriver since the 90's
  • 1130 downriver since ??
  • 1270 downriver since the 00's
  • 1500 downriver since the 50's
  • And even though not 50kw, the old 540, 580, 680/690, and 1550 are also "downriver" to a degree.
Is there a reason for this pattern? Is it due to proximity to the lakes? Soil patterns? Something else? Specifically, what about those reasons causes it? I would love to fully understand this.



CK-722
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by CK-722 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:12 pm

You forgot WFDF 910, licensed at the new site. And WCHB/WMUZ 1200.

WNZK 690/680 is also down there. WRDT 560 is a little further down.

There are two major reasons. One is that the REAL (not M-3 estimate) conductivity is best near the Detroit River. WCAR...WDFN 1130 originally wanted to locate on Grosse Isle when they moved from Square Lake and Telegraph and went 50/10 kW. The other is that the DAs all need to send their signals generally North to avoid interference to other stations, and toward the population center.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

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k8jd
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by k8jd » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:23 am

Yes the directional antennas are aimed away from possible interference targets and in this part of the country that is aiming north, hence you place the transmitters South of the populated areas. Out west The transmitters are are East of the populated areas, beaming west. ETC.



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rst599
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by rst599 » Mon May 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Siting AM directionals is dependent on a number of factors, primarily driven by pattern design to protect other stations.

Once you figure out your maximum allowed radiation toward each station in the allocation study (daytime goes out plus and minus 3 channels; nighttime mainly considers co-channel stations) and a directional pattern is designed that meets those criteria, there hopefully is a major lobe or two that can cover the city of license with at least the minimum city-grade contour.

You then need to identify an area where the transmitter can be located to provide that service, and then find enough land (which can be zoned for the intended purpose) to build out the array. (Obtaining local government approval was one of the hangups that prevented the construction of the 1160/1460 site for so long.) The site needs to be close enough to the population center while being far enough to minimize the population within the blanketing contour (1 V/m).

Most of the downriver sites are located there because their patterns pull in to protect stations to the east, south or west, so the main lobe tends to be oriented northward.



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WOHO
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by WOHO » Tue May 19, 2020 12:53 am

WRDT- do they have to service their COL? Such a null to the south and night time in another county- could they change their COL from Monroe to service Metro Detroit (that is, when they were Honey Radio and had a lot of devoted listeners)? Were they originally a daytimer and why the 13W at night?



k8jd
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by k8jd » Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 am

The WRDT.Monroe antenna facility is kinda aimed toward Detroit for sure but the night time signal comes from the multi station tower in the area near Wyoming ave and 8 1/2 mile (Northend) Rd.. in Oak Park township.
It's curious that 13 watts still does not reach anywhere near Monore but covers a fair part of northern Metro Detroit at night. Isn't this station still licensed for Monroe ? I still recall when it was WQTE WHNE and maybe one other before it got the Current callsign



CK-722
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 20, 2020 12:32 pm

There has been no requirement for a Class D PSSA to put an NIF over the COL. In fact, Class Bs are no longer even required to do that, as evidenced by the new WPON and WCXI Class B facilities. In fact, WGVU, WFDF, WJMK, WLCM, WPNW, WCPT (WAIT), WZTI, WPAY, and many other stations would not have had to change COLs when they increased power and went fulltime, had the old requirement not been in place when they did.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

innate-in-you
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by innate-in-you » Thu May 21, 2020 7:39 pm

k8jd wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 am
The WRDT.Monroe antenna facility is kinda aimed toward Detroit for sure but the night time signal comes from the multi station tower in the area near Wyoming ave and 8 1/2 mile (Northend) Rd.. in Oak Park township.
It's curious that 13 watts still does not reach anywhere near Monore but covers a fair part of northern Metro Detroit at night. Isn't this station still licensed for Monroe ? I still recall when it was WQTE WHNE and maybe one other before it got the Current callsign
WRDT's night operation uses the WCSX/Former WGPR-TV tower in Royal Oak Township. 14 watts omnidirectional at night.

Since it's Class D, it is not required to serve its Monroe COL at night (an obvious impossibility, unless they would choose to serve only Monroe at night).



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WOHO
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by WOHO » Tue May 26, 2020 12:54 am

So you're saying 1520, WPAY could have kept Toledo as their COL instead of stinkin Rossford when they upgraded their facilities from the Jackman Rd Michigan Daytime tower and the half dozen in Perrysburg Township at night before the Turnpike bulldozed them?



innate-in-you
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by innate-in-you » Sun May 31, 2020 3:34 pm

WOHO wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 12:54 am
So you're saying 1520, WPAY could have kept Toledo as their COL instead of stinkin Rossford when they upgraded their facilities from the Jackman Rd Michigan Daytime tower and the half dozen in Perrysburg Township at night before the Turnpike bulldozed them?
At the time WPAY was moved, a major facility change required that the station would be obligated to "serve" a community that had no radio station.

Toledo already had WSPD (and a few others), so the owners chose Rossford, since they had 5mV/m daytime and 20:1 NIF over all of Rossford.

All in all, the restrictions on having more than one station in a given COL, an FCC mandate to support more service in rural areas, and to further the introduction of FM service in cities, seems silly today.

The comparison to TV service is quite different. In that case, the all-channel rule was put into effect, providing all television sets made after 30 June 1964 for sale in the USA will be equipped with 82-channel tuners*

(* For all receivers sold in interstate commerce. I guess, theoretically, that Magnavox could have made UHF-only sets for their South Bend and Fort Wayne markets, and Packard Bell could have also made UHF-only sets for the Bakersfield and Fresno markets. I have no knowledge of either company using that loophole.)



Deleted User 15342

Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by Deleted User 15342 » Sun May 31, 2020 3:38 pm

k8jd wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 am
The WRDT.Monroe antenna facility is kinda aimed toward Detroit for sure but the night time signal comes from the multi station tower in the area near Wyoming ave and 8 1/2 mile (Northend) Rd.. in Oak Park township.
It's curious that 13 watts still does not reach anywhere near Monore but covers a fair part of northern Metro Detroit at night. Isn't this station still licensed for Monroe ? I still recall when it was WQTE WHNE and maybe one other before it got the Current callsign
560’s previous call sign before WQTE was WMIC in 1956 until 1959 and became Fabulous 56.



CK-722
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Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by CK-722 » Sun May 31, 2020 3:44 pm

It would have been a minor change had they been able to put an NIF contour over Toledo. They may have gotten FCC goodie points for changing the COL though. Like you say, silly rule, and one that continues to be used in order to justify certain "upgrades". But now you don't have to even put an NIF over the COL. WCXI and WPON remain with COLs of Fenton and Walled Lake, respectively.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

CK-722
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by CK-722 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:09 pm

Lucky615, did you by any chance know the late Big Ron O'Brien from KFI, WCFL, WCAR (The Giant 1130), and other stations? One night I was listening to KFI 640, when it used to come in occasionally. It was probably in 1979 or 1980. I called to say I was listening in Michigan, and we had quite a chat. I told him I mainly remembered him from WCFL 1000 . He said he had worked at WCAR 1130, during The Giant 1130 era (Top 40 or later AOR), and lived in Southgate, about a mile from WDEE...WLQV 1500, and could barely hear 1500 at Night in Southgate.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

Deleted User 15342

Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by Deleted User 15342 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:50 am

CK-722 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:09 pm
Lucky615, did you by any chance know the late Big Ron O'Brien from KFI, WCFL, WCAR (The Giant 1130), and other stations? One night I was listening to KFI 640, when it used to come in occasionally. It was probably in 1979 or 1980. I called to say I was listening in Michigan, and we had quite a chat. I told him I mainly remembered him from WCFL 1000 . He said he had worked at WCAR 1130, during The Giant 1130 era (Top 40 or later AOR), and lived in Southgate, about a mile from WDEE...WLQV 1500, and could barely hear 1500 at Night in Southgate.
Did not know Big Ron but another great radio personality Ed Busch from WCAR 1130 was a neighbor back in 1970. I lived in a new subdivision at the time Gateway Manor on Manor Drive and Ed was at an apartment complex on Fordline Rd. and Northline Which was like two blocks away, Ed was a great dude he would also tell me about the going ons at WCAR at that time WCAR was doing the Giant 1130 top 40 thing.



Deleted User 15342

Re: Downriver AM transmitters

Post by Deleted User 15342 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:01 am

CK-722, since we’re on the subject of AM 1130 the old WPON tower site at Telegraph (or Woodward not sure) and Square Lake was that the original site for WCAR 1130. And can you tell me what years and when did WCAR move the towers to Gibraltar the info would be much appreciated and Thanks.



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