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WTVN 610

The technical side of broadcasting. Think IBOC is a sham? Talk about it here! How about HDTV? Post DX reports here as well.
k8jd
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by k8jd » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:17 pm

At night I was hearing WMT in Cedar Rapids . IA from the three tower dogleg array, Reminded me that I have been there and seen the WMT antenna.



CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:53 pm

That WMT Night Pattern dogleg also looks like it was influenced by Carl Smith. He was born in Eldon, IA.

WMT has been on STA because nearby cell towers have been reradiating the signal. CKAT may not be changing power and pattern, many have speculated, as it is heard Night after Night.


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Radiobingoking
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by Radiobingoking » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:33 am

Back in the 60's, while living in northwest Detroit, I had a tube radio that during the day I could turn to null WTVN and get weak reception from CKTB in St. Catharines.


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SolarMax
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by SolarMax » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:56 am

Radiobingoking wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:33 am
Back in the 60's, while living in northwest Detroit, I had a tube radio that during the day I could turn to null WTVN and get weak reception from CKTB in St. Catharines.
During that same time, in N.E. Detroit, I also frequently dialed in WTVN, on a GE tabletop radio. I'd listen to "Sunday In Columbus," which, unlike Detroit locals, played music before noon on Sundays, rather than airing church remotes. It was on WTVN's Sunday show that I first heard Jim Runyon, and later followed him around the dial. Runyon later went to WKYC and then on to WCFL, where he became famous as the narrator of Dick Orkin's "Chicken Man," wrapping each episode with "Wellllllll......."
WTVN was usually decent night and day copy for many years, not so much now it seems.



CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:03 am

The 8 Bay FM antenna on Tower 5 is for WODC 93.3. In case any of you hadn't noticed, the bays are closer together than the typical full wavelength spacing-half wave spaced. Half wave spacing is becoming more popular because it results in less downward radiation, to comply with environmental radio frequency radiation standards. Also, it is being used with translators to avoid second and third adjacent channel interference to full power stations. It has considerably less gain than full wave spacing, but because you can squeeze in more bays in less space, requiring less aperture to rent from today's tower owners, often not the station owner, you can get sufficient gain for the ERP required.

https://fccdata.org/?facid=&call=WODC&c ... =&lang=ens

History Card

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/ ... r_id=80113

Originally Chillicothe, OH COL. Moved to Ashville, OH to meet Section 73.315 70 dBu requirements and also put 70 dBu over Columbus.


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k8jd
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by k8jd » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:42 pm

I have noticed a few "short stacks" FMBC antennas, around the Detroit Metro area , a few in the New Center area/.



CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:51 pm

It appears that the short tower pictured is Tower 1, the one that collapsed. Are the tower leg concrete bases supposed to be that tilted? If they shifted, I could see it might contribute to a collapse. The whole thing looks rickety though. At least when there were dedicated payroll engineers at station sites, they could watch and see when things were deteriorating in four dimensions, (x,y,z,t), before they collapsed.


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CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:04 pm

Also, have you seen the speaker stack domes on the Civil Defense Sirens? It looks like a very closely spaced RF antenna. If you think about it, the speed of sound is about 1100 feet per second. 1 wavelength at 1100 Hz would be 1 foot. At 550 Hz, the wavelength would be 2 feet, 1 foot would be a half wave. Although sound waves are not TEM waves, but longitudinal waves, they behave in similar ways. I remember when WSVC (now WUGN, it was a continuous license with silent STAs along the way) was broadcasting a 1 kHz tone to keep its license, I would listen to it on a 5 foot wide stereo theater, and go in and out of the nulls as I walked around the front of the console.


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CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:12 pm

Anyone know of a real time satellite view of the WTVN site to see what the progress is on the tower replacement? The Apple Maps Satellite View on this device shows all six towers up.

39 52' 33.60" -82 58' 48.00"

Make sure you put the minus sign on the Longitude or you are looking at China.


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WOHO
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by WOHO » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:52 am

Enjoyed listening to them on weekends in the early 90's on my Chrysler minivan AM Stereo radio- good audio, music programming, and they would pay an 'oh wow' 45 every once in a while too (in the winter when there were no sports to broadcast), WTVN has of course turned-off their HD both day and night.



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Ed Joseph
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:24 pm

Carl Smith. I recall that name from my time at WTAC. The old Center road array was a blowtorch, I'll say that.


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CK-722
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by CK-722 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:53 pm

The WTAC 600 Array at G-6171 S. Center Rd. was not a typical parallelogram with two two tower patterns multiplied together, rather, it was two patterns added together vectorially. The layout is a parallelogram. That is what has Carl E. Smith written all over it. He analyzed the WGAR (WHKW) 1220 in the NAB Handbook, with five towers. The CKLW 800 array is like the old WTAC 600 parallelogram, rotated about 15 degrees clockwise, and with a fifth tower in the center of the array. Also a Carl E. Smith inspired array, if not his altogether. At the time WTAC and CKLW were built, there were only about 40 AM BC DAs nationwide. After that, there was a rapid proliferation of AM BC DAs with new post war stations. Most stations were still on the Local frequencies with nondirectional monopoles, or old style hammock antennas suspended between two towers, like the two still on the Mott Foundation Building in Flint, with a bunch of two way and cell stuff now, and recently lighted, for the first time in my recollection. It suspended the the WFDF 1310 antenna and auxiliary from 1930 to 1941, when the Bristol Rd. array was built, and WFDF moved from 1310 to 910, under NARBA. It would have otherwise moved to 1340, or to 880 with their CP. It remained as the AUX with 100 watts on 910 until 1952, when the 1 kW AUX moved to Bristol Rd. Much of this is on the WFDF History Card.
Last edited by CK-722 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Ed Joseph
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:14 pm

"The CKLW 800 array is like the old WTAC 600 parallelogram, rotated about 15 degrees clockwise, and with a fifth tower in the center of the array."

I recall a station in Memphis with a large array like that. Maybe WHBQ or WDIA?? The towers were downright humongous and I believe the one in the middle was as tall as some TV towers. It was, I want to say, south-ish of Millington, where the Naval Air Station used to be located. It was the tallest parallelogram array I'd ever seen. That was almost 40 years ago I was in the Navy there though, and Memphis has a lot of low-dial AM stations, so I could be wrong. In fact, that particular area had DA's visible all over the place! Shit, the old Naval Air Technical Training Command there where I learned electronics ceased to exist some years ago, as did the Recruit Training Command in Winter Park Florida, where I did boot camp. Damn, how time flies. Oh, well, at least I am now back to the same basic weight and size I was when I graduated basic. Actually a couple sizes smaller!


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Ed Joseph
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:21 pm

Where exactly *is* the CKLW transmitter? Or CKWW?

I remember driving into Windsor in the late 80's to early 90's, just outside the tunnel a ways I saw an large, odd array of five or six really, really short towers, probably like 75' or less. They were freshly painted red and white and appeared to be supporting some kind of curtain antenna from them. I visited again a few years later, and there was no trace of them at all. I've always wondered what that was all about.

Edit to add.. I suppose I should mention that this site I was a bit south of Windsor, somewhere around a big curve as you get on the highway to Kingsville, Highway 20, if I recall correctly. We were going to Kingsville, at any rate, I wasn't driving but noticed this out my window. It was located within sight distance a ways behind another site with 4 much larger towers in an inline array. I'm guessing the site may be perhaps CBET's old 540 site or maybe some relic from RCI shortwave?


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Big Signal
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Re: WTVN 610

Post by Big Signal » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:42 am

Where exactly *is* the CKLW transmitter? Or CKWW?
These two links should help you out on their locations Ed.


https://fccdata.org/?lang=en&canam=CKLW

https://fccdata.org/?call=ckww&ccode=2& ... DN&lang=en


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