The Strongest Skywaves In The Straits Area Of Northern Michigan

[CK-722]

Old WYLL 1160 5 kW Night facility in Des Plaines, where the Day facility remains.



The reason they couldn't radiate much to the North is that there was a Vacant Allotment on 1160 kHz in Thunder Bay, ON. duTriel, Lundin, and Rackley suggested to the Canadian negotiators that they change the allotment to 1170 kHz. That allotment also remains Vacant.

[Rich F.]

WYLL should probably also be on the list. But they are 50 kW Night from a second site in Lockport, IL. ...

Here is a list of Chicago AM stations showing their nighttime skywave (50%) fields in Mackinaw City, MI.

WSCR: 0.73 mV/m
WGN: 0.75 "
WBBM 0.67 "
WLS: 0.72 "
WMVP: 1.1 "
WYLL: 1.3 "

The value shown for WBBM is the result of the NEC4.2 analysis below, which is based on their presently-licensed 42 kW of transmitter power diplexed onto the WSCR tower.

[rugratsonline]

I've never heard anything from Detroit at our place in the Tampa Bay area. On one or two rare occasions, I've heard CFRB.

Surprised you could hear CFRB in Tampa Bay, as they have WHFS on 1010, which broadcasts at 5kw at night, unless you're further north or south of the area (WHFS broadcasts towards the east and west at night).

[Turkeytop]

I've never heard anything from Detroit at our place in the Tampa Bay area. On one or two rare occasions, I've heard CFRB.

Surprised you could hear CFRB in Tampa Bay, as they have WHFS on 1010, which broadcasts at 5kw at night, unless you're further north or south of the area (WHFS broadcasts towards the east and west at night).

Then, I guess it couldn't have been CFRB. It was over twenty years ago so I may have forgotten. It was something from Toronto.

[innate-in-you]

1. WWJ 950 50000 watts, Directional to the North.
2. WFDF 910 25000 watts, Directional to the North.
3. WJR 760 50000 watts, Nondirectional.
4. WMVP 1000 50000 watts, DA to the East.
5. WGN 720 50000 watts, Non-DA.
6. WLS 890 50000 watts, Non-DA.
7. WCKY 1530 50000 watts, trifolar DA pattern, large lobe to the North after KFBK Sacramento Sunset.
8. WLW 700 50000 watts, Non-DA.
9. WHAS 840 50000 watts, Non-DA.
10. WSCR 670 50000 watts, Non-DA.
11. CFZM 740 50000 watts, Non-DA.
12. CJBC 860 50000 watts, Non-DA.
13. WBBM 780 42000 watts, Non-DA. Historically, before the diplex and power reduction, would be in the Top 5 or so.
14. WBZ 1030 50000 watts, DA to the West.
15. WCCO 830 50000 watts, Non-DA.
16. KYW 1060 50000 watts, bifolar DA, major lobe to the NW.
17. WRVA 1140 50000 watts, bifolar DA, major lobe to the NW.
18. CKLW 800 50000 watts, bifolar DA, major lobe NNE, better in Eastern Michigan, Alpena.
19. WSM 650 50000 watts, Non-DA.
20. WLAC 1510 50000 watts, trifolar DA, major lobe North.
21. WCBS 880 50000 watts Non-DA.
22. WABC 770 50000 watts, Non-DA.
23. WFAN 660 50000 watts, Non-DA.
24. KDKA 1020 50000 watts, Non-DA. After 100 years, they have apparently solved their geologically compromised ground system. Something about ferrite type deposits close underground as I recall. Old timers called it "Fadey KA".

Historically, WOWO 1190 50000 watts, DA to the East would be in the Top 5 or so.
WXYT 1270 50000 watts DA, better to the NNE, near Alpena, and away from WMKT 1270 27000/5000 U2.
WOOD 1300 20000 watts DA, NNE, strong but with a lot of interference usually. Best during CH, which favors shorter distances 150-300 miles away. WRDZ LaGrange, IL is in the same general direction, and also WJMO 1300 in Cleveland, legacy call letters WERE, are primary contributors, increasing toward Sunset.
CHML 900 50000 watts DA, WNW and ESE, is very strong in some areas, but has very narrow lobes. Some towers are a half mile away from each other, maybe a little more.

If you think WWJ is strong at the Strait, go further east to Sudbury. Wear a lead suit for your own RF safety.

I've never been impressed with KDKA's signal (same goes for WTAM).

[innate-in-you]

Old WYLL 1160 5 kW Night facility in Des Plaines, where the Day facility remains.



The reason they couldn't radiate much to the North is that there was a Vacant Allotment on 1160 kHz in Thunder Bay, ON. duTriel, Lundin, and Rackley suggested to the Canadian negotiators that they change the allotment to 1170 kHz. That allotment
also remains Vacant.

Seems odd that Thunder Bay would have ever had an allotment on 1160.

Note that they had a station on 580 there. If they used 1160 kHz for an AM station, a second harmonic of CKPR would have caused co-channel interference to the new station. If not directly as second harmonic interference, the interference generated by the converter transistor inside the radio receiver itself.

[CK-722]

I think they were always just intended to be placeholder allotments, kind of like staking a claim. Canada went through and allotted nearly every possible allotment on FM in cities near the US Canada Border. They aren't as problematic as you might think, as they are only protected on Canadian land, to the border or US shoreline.

[CK-722]

Old WYLL 1160 5 kW Night facility in Des Plaines, where the Day facility remains.



The reason they couldn't radiate much to the North is that there was a Vacant Allotment on 1160 kHz in Thunder Bay, ON. duTriel, Lundin, and Rackley suggested to the Canadian negotiators that they change the allotment to 1170 kHz. That allotment
also remains Vacant.

Seems odd that Thunder Bay would have ever had an allotment on 1160.

Note that they had a station on 580 there. If they used 1160 kHz for an AM station, a second harmonic of CKPR would have caused co-channel interference to the new station. If not directly as second harmonic interference, the interference generated by the converter transistor inside the radio receiver itself.

A good indicator that this would be a problem is that people hear WTCM 580 on 1160 within a few miles of WTCM, and WSGW 790 on 1580 along I-75, within a few miles of WSGW on Uncle Henry Rd I also don't know why a new station in Thunder Bay wouldn't just apply for the vacated 580 or 800 facilities.

[innate-in-you]

In part, to be sure, because nobody would think building two AM radio stations in a remote location in Northern Ontario would be a viable business plan in such a small market, competing with FM stations already on the air - and with plenty of 3m spectrum for more new FMs.

Keep in mind that Canada will only Grant a new broadcast enterprise only if the applicant can show that their operation will not result in a loss of revenue to existing stations.

Baton successfully kept Global out of Saskatchewan for a decade. Global applied again years later, and a hearing was set up to decide if Global Saskatchewan would harm the finances of CTV.

When an inquest discovered that CTV Saskatchewan was the most profitable operation CTV had, the CRTC approved Global Saskatchewan to build.

[k8jd]

I could hear WYLL fairly well here in Oakland co Until they finally brought the Fenton station to Wixom, and with 15KW !
At night they are only 400 W but right in this neighborhood !

[k8jd]

Canadian radio once used high power AM to cover the Bush in the northern area but I guess now they think the bushlanders all have satellIte radio and they only want to spend for the FM coverage in the populated areas. A L O T of AM power houses have shut down across Canada !
I care because I am half Canadian !

[k8jd]

I think they were always just intended to be placeholder allotments, kind of like staking a claim. Canada went through and allotted nearly every possible allotment on FM in cities near the US Canada Border. They aren't as problematic as you might think, as they are only protected on Canadian land, to the border or US shoreline.

Sounds like the two way radio Dealer/Servicers and Municipalities, "banking Channels" and holding licenses for un-used channels for future expansion of repeater service. That was a big deal when I started in that work in the late 60s.

[k8jd]

[quote=innate-in-you post_id=608646 time=1589588200 user_id=147ground as I recall. Old timers called it "Fadey KA".

[/quote]

If you think WWJ is strong at the Strait, go further east to Sudbury. Wear a lead suit for your own RF safety.

I've never been impressed with KDKA's signal (same goes for WTAM).
[/quote]

Multi tower beaming the signal at you Vs. single stick omni directional I think ?
?

[Turkeytop]

Canadian radio once used high power AM to cover the Bush in the northern area but I guess now they think the bushlanders all have satellIte radio and they only want to spend for the FM coverage in the populated areas. A L O T of AM power houses have shut down across Canada !
I care because I am half Canadian !

CBC has a network of low power FM transmitters all through the north. Tiny settlements in remote locations get, at least, CBC radio.

Here is a map for their tower locations. But in some small communities there isn't even a tower. Just an antenna atop a utility pole.

https://cbctransmission.ca/en/map

[CK-722]

Here are all the AM Records, including silent stations and allotments, in the Region II Database, for Thunder Bay, Ontario


AM Query Results
Sun May 17 09:44:58 2020 Eastern time


----- Search Parameters -----
City/Community: THUNDER BAY
State: ON
Lower Frequency: 530 kHz
Upper Frequency: 1700 kHz
Use the TEXT SIZE input on the AM Query page to change the text size in the list below, for easier printing or viewing.
Click on the blue Call Sign or blue Facility ID Number to retrieve more detailed information from the AM Query, including access to the CDBS database records pertaining to that station.
Records for stations outside the USA are derived from international notifications.
License, application, and construction permit (CP) coordinates shown in the AM Query are NAD 27 coordinates.


CKPR AM 580 kHz ND1 Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 5.0 kW 106087 -
CKPR AM 580 kHz ND1 Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 1.0 kW 106087 -
C58T AM 580 kHz ND Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 5.0 kW 189786 -
C58T AM 580 kHz ND Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 1.0 kW 189786 -
CBQ AM 800 kHz DA1 Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 10.0 kW 98867 -
CBQ AM 800 kHz DA1 Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 5.0 kW 98867 -
NEW AM 870 kHz DAN Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 10.0 kW 98925 -
NEW AM 870 kHz DAN Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 4.0 kW 98925 -
NEW AM 1010 kHz DAN Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 10.0 kW 99457 -
NEW AM 1010 kHz DAN Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 5.0 kW 99457 -
1170TB AM 1170 kHz DAN Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 10.0 kW 159542 -
1170TB AM 1170 kHz DAN Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 2.5 kW 159542 -
CJLB AM 1230 kHz ND1 Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 4.0 kW 103064 -
CJLB AM 1230 kHz ND1 Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 1.0 kW 103064 -
CJLB AM 1230 kHz ND1 Daytime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 4.0 kW 103064 -
CJLB AM 1230 kHz ND1 Nighttime B B - THUNDER BAY ON CA --- 1.0 kW 103064 -
*** 16 Records Retrieved ***
Return to AM Query Data Entry screen



***

For the record, CJLB moved from 1230 to 105.3 circa 1986, and is now CKTG. It operated at 4 kW Daytime on 1230, a Local, Class C, Channel.