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Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

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zzand
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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by zzand » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:05 pm

Interesting discussion. I do believe that you can give facts and be racist at the same time. It is all in how you present them. I also believe the word racist is used a lot these days for anyone who doesn't believe as you do or doesn't support a certain candidate, who ever that is. It has become the in label to stick on someone for whatever reason and in a lot of cases it is far from the truth.



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Turkeytop
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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Turkeytop » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:28 pm

Trump may or may not be a racist. But he's campaigning for the racist vote. He doesn't want to leave a single racist vote uncast.


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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by bmw » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:10 pm

Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:21 am
This is the most articulate and intelligent response possibly. Unfortunate, the unhinged left on here will find some way to twist and manipulate it to absurd levels to fit their agenda. Intellect rately combats hate anger and stubborn bias.
Thanks. I just get tired of the attitude that calling someone a racist carries with it no responsibility and no burden of proof. Instead, these people simply cry "racism" or "racist" as if it is a fact, thereby placing the burden of proof on the accused or of their supporters that they're NOT racist. And it was even worse than that in Lester's case as he took the position that there is no debate - that what Trump said IS in fact racist (without providing any proof, mind you), and that you're some kind of low life if you even attempt to defend him. This is the worst kind of politics and the worst kind of intellectual debate tactic. But as he's implied time and again in this forum, Lester is intellectually superior to the point of being exempt from having back up his positions because they must be right if they came from the mouth of somebody as smart as him.



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by bmw » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:12 pm

Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:28 pm
Trump may or may not be a racist. But he's campaigning for the racist vote. He doesn't want to leave a single racist vote uncast.
So is your opinion that criticizing people of color equates to campaigning for the "racist vote"?



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Y M Ionhere » Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:18 pm

bmw wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:10 pm
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:21 am
This is the most articulate and intelligent response possibly. Unfortunate, the unhinged left on here will find some way to twist and manipulate it to absurd levels to fit their agenda. Intellect rately combats hate anger and stubborn bias.
Thanks. I just get tired of the attitude that calling someone a racist carries with it no responsibility and no burden of proof. Instead, these people simply cry "racism" or "racist" as if it is a fact, thereby placing the burden of proof on the accused or of their supporters that they're NOT racist. And it was even worse than that in Lester's case as he took the position that there is no debate - that what Trump said IS in fact racist (without providing any proof, mind you), and that you're some kind of low life if you even attempt to defend him. This is the worst kind of politics and the worst kind of intellectual debate tactic. But as he's implied time and again in this forum, Lester is intellectually superior to the point of being exempt from having back up his positions because they must be right if they came from the mouth of somebody as smart as him.
I just feel like trying to use intellect and sound logic against people who cross the line of civility is no longer fruitful and is like talking to thin air. They arent going to be nice and tolerant. They seem bent on destroying reputations for power. I feel like I cant be as nice as you are anymore. Its like saying "please dont hurt me" to a hostage-taker armed with explosives. Logic and intellect may no longer be viable to people that extreme who really seem to want large swaths of the voting populace ostracized.



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by zzand » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:40 pm

I first noticed this when Mr. Obama ran the first time. People would ask if you, generic you, were going to vote for him and if you said no you were an automatic racist. Never mind that you didn't agree with his politics or had never voted Democrat in all your years of voting, you were an automatic racist. Then when Mrs. Clinton ran and you, again generic you, were asked if you were going to vote for her if you said no you were sexist or other names along that line. No logic involved, just straight out labeling because of your choice in candidate.



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Turkeytop
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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Turkeytop » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:38 pm

bmw wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:12 pm
Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:28 pm
Trump may or may not be a racist. But he's campaigning for the racist vote. He doesn't want to leave a single racist vote uncast.
So is your opinion that criticizing people of color equates to campaigning for the "racist vote"?
There's a difference between criticism and insult. Trump uses his most vile and hateful insults on people of colour.

He doesn't tell Bernie Sanders to go back where he came from. He doesn't try to spin some conspiracy theory that Joe Biden was really born in Kenya. He doesn't refer to white countries like Denmark or Switzerland as "s---hole countries."


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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Lester The Nightfly » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:15 pm

Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:38 pm
bmw wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:12 pm
Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:28 pm
Trump may or may not be a racist. But he's campaigning for the racist vote. He doesn't want to leave a single racist vote uncast.
So is your opinion that criticizing people of color equates to campaigning for the "racist vote"?
There's a difference between criticism and insult. Trump uses his most vile and hateful insults on people of colour.

He doesn't tell Bernie Sanders to go back where he came from. He doesn't try to spin some conspiracy theory that Joe Biden was really born in Kenya. He doesn't refer to white countries like Denmark or Switzerland as "s---hole countries."
You're right but Trump and many of his vocal supporters (some of which are exhibited on these very pages, personal attacks included) fail willingly or unwillingly to acknowledge that. There's always some rationalization they put forth that absolves clearly abhorrent behavior. It's the point I was making earlier and has still continues well past that post.

Pretty sad really. One wonders what other moral shortcomings they make allowances for?



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Y M Ionhere » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:35 pm

Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:38 pm
bmw wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:12 pm
Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:28 pm
Trump may or may not be a racist. But he's campaigning for the racist vote. He doesn't want to leave a single racist vote uncast.
So is your opinion that criticizing people of color equates to campaigning for the "racist vote"?
There's a difference between criticism and insult. Trump uses his most vile and hateful insults on people of colour.

He doesn't tell Bernie Sanders to go back where he came from. He doesn't try to spin some conspiracy theory that Joe Biden was really born in Kenya. He doesn't refer to white countries like Denmark or Switzerland as "s---hole countries."
Im willing to concede the first paragraph because i believe a President needs to engage in diplomaxy.
But your second paragraph falls apart and lacks credibility.
First, the Obama/Kenya thing was started by a Clinton staffer who tried to use it in the Democratic primary. There was an allegation that Obamas African grandmother claimed to have witnessed his birth in Kenya. Trumps biggest mistake was pursuing it and investigating something that didnt really affect him. But that was Clintons thing. So why compare it to Bernie Sanders? Nobody doubted he was born here, so where would he go back to? Nobody doubted or -and this is a big difference-CLAIMED-Joe Biden was born elsewhere. No family member made such a statement. This is an apples to oranges comparison.
As is the country comparison. Because you are comparing 1st and 3rd world nations. People in Switzerland arent living off the grid, with no power or plumbing, in mud huts out in 110 degree heat with limited food sources. Swiss roads arent full of waste and sewage. The average life expectancy is much greater than 35 years old. AIDS is not afflicting significant numbers of the population. Political unrest and corruption is worse in most 3rd world countries than in most of the developed world. Resources arent squandered by dictators who steal elections. When Denmark is overrun by sewage and undrinkable water and AIDS epidemics and starvation, then you can draw comparos. Until then, like TC pushing the race card, you are desperately grabbing at straws with little credibility.



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by bmw » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:37 pm

Turkeytop wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:38 pm
There's a difference between criticism and insult. Trump uses his most vile and hateful insults on people of colour.

He doesn't tell Bernie Sanders to go back where he came from. He doesn't try to spin some conspiracy theory that Joe Biden was really born in Kenya. He doesn't refer to white countries like Denmark or Switzerland as "s---hole countries."
Denmark and Switzerland aren't third-world countries.

Nobody ever suggested that Joe Biden wasn't born in the US. Trump was far from alone in having doubts about Obama's place of birth.

As to Bernie Sanders, I think Trump has largely avoided criticizing him for political reasons, NOT as you have implied because he's white. While Bernie is a far-left socialist, he has a lot of lower-middle class working class supporters, some of which Trump thinks he might be able to sway to vote for him.

People will always see racism where they WANT to see racism. And I'm telling you right now that this boy-who-cried-wolf syndrome whereby the left can't help but cry racism repeatedly will backfire in 2020.



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Y M Ionhere » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm

one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Turkeytop » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 am

Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm
one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.
You're losing me. I can't quite follow such a convoluted trail of logic.


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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Y M Ionhere » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 am

Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm
one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.
You're losing me. I can't quite follow such a convoluted trail of logic.
I find it ironic that the same people who accuse Trump of being for white supremacy and keeping the country white also admit that the countries they admire and wish we were more like are "white countries". If diversity really mattered to socialists they would condemn places like Switzerland for being, as you yourself put it, "white countries".



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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Turkeytop » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:42 am

Y M Ionhere wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 am
Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm
one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.
You're losing me. I can't quite follow such a convoluted trail of logic.
I find it ironic that the same people who accuse Trump of being for white supremacy and keeping the country white also admit that the countries they admire and wish we were more like are "white countries". If diversity really mattered to socialists they would condemn places like Switzerland for being, as you yourself put it, "white countries".
You can't condemn a country for being white any more than you can condemn a country for being black. It isn't a county's whiteness that we admire. It's their progressive political and social policies that make them admirable.

We condemned South Africa when it was a black country ruled by white supremacists. We condemned Hitler's white Germany.

Right now today, all over Europe, white nationalists are whipping up fear and hatred of immigrants, using the same playbook as is Trump


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Re: Can A Statement Be Racist If It's True?

Post by Y M Ionhere » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:58 pm

Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:42 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 am
Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm
one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.
You're losing me. I can't quite follow such a convoluted trail of logic.
I find it ironic that the same people who accuse Trump of being for white supremacy and keeping the country white also admit that the countries they admire and wish we were more like are "white countries". If diversity really mattered to socialists they would condemn places like Switzerland for being, as you yourself put it, "white countries".
You can't condemn a country for being white any more than you can condemn a country for being black. It isn't a county's whiteness that we admire. It's their progressive political and social policies that make them admirable.

We condemned South Africa when it was a black country ruled by white supremacists. We condemned Hitler's white Germany.

Right now today, all over Europe, white nationalists are whipping up fear and hatred of immigrants, using the same playbook as is Trump
Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:42 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 am
Turkeytop wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:00 am
Y M Ionhere wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:27 pm
one other thing: you referred to Switzerland and Denmark as "white countries". Statistically this could be true. But dont most self-identified "Democratoc socialists" cite those countries as the places we must emulate the most.
Hmmm. The far left wing "socialists" that accuse Trump and his supporters of racism want us to be more like admittedly "white", homogenous countries with Less diversity than us.
Ironic.
You're losing me. I can't quite follow such a convoluted trail of logic.
I find it ironic that the same people who accuse Trump of being for white supremacy and keeping the country white also admit that the countries they admire and wish we were more like are "white countries". If diversity really mattered to socialists they would condemn places like Switzerland for being, as you yourself put it, "white countries".
You can't condemn a country for being white any more than you can condemn a country for being black. It isn't a county's whiteness that we admire. It's their progressive political and social policies that make them admirable.

We condemned South Africa when it was a black country ruled by white supremacists. We condemned Hitler's white Germany.

Right now today, all over Europe, white nationalists are whipping up fear and hatred of immigrants, using the same playbook as is Trump

Guy plows over 40+ civilians with a box truck. Refugees burn tent villages. Riots in French streets. The backlash against immigration is not hatred but the harsh realities of safety threats brought on by left wing immigration policies and utter denial of reality by socialists who dont want to accept that not every immigrant has good intentions.



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