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Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:28 am

szmigiel wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:53 am
I didn't think WHNE signal would be strong enough to interfere with a station out of Lansing.
But WLAJ's post repack contour on 14 goes all the way to Royal Oak Township. That's the same township WHNE's tower is in, the tower is only a mile from the contour edge. WLAJ will also be protected in Redford and Romulus. WHNE would be limited to a very directional pattern only covering Macomb County, southeast Oakland County, Essex County, ON, east Downriver, and east Detroit.

As for your original question on CHCH on 14, rabbitears.info doesn't have their post repack contour map on there, but I do know it'll be decreasing to 88 kW. Here is a map of the contours of WLAJ-14, WHNE-20, CHCH-51, and a 77.28 km radius circle (the 41 dBu distance of CHCH on 14 at 88 kW at its current height, assuming nondirectionality) with its center at CHCH's trasmitter site. https://www.rabbitears.info/contour_old ... -81.858056

CHCH 14 would almost be no different from 51. Going as far as New Haven, New Baltimore, Richmond, etc.


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szmigiel
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by szmigiel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:56 am

There is more overlap in the western suburbs than I thought there would be. Does anyone on the Westside actually pick up WLAJ as a good signal?



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RingtailedFox
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by RingtailedFox » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:05 pm

szmigiel wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:21 am
How far does 51 CHCH-2 out of London actually reach? I have never picked them up on a scan, or even seen a weak signal. They are suppose to move to 14 where WKBD 50 was. I wonder why WHNE couldn't actually be located at 14.
I picked it up a couple times as an analog station on UHF 51, during early morning summer tropo events, but only covers London, Sarnia, and Chatham.
MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:21 am
That axe blade shaped directional pattern would be highly difficult to implement in practice. The manufacturing cost of a directional transmitting antenna built to those specifications would likely be very expensive, assuming the design is even feasible for a video signal.

Even if that pattern *were* feasible, I am not so sure going co-channel with WNEM is the best idea. That could lead to reception issues in places like White Lake Twp., Milford, Waterford, Clarkston, Hartland, Highland Twp., Brighton, etc. True, the co-channel effects probably would be less bothersome than the reception issues caused by usage of VHF 3. Many indoor and even some outdoor antenna designs these days are designed for reception of only channels VHF 7 & above.

Ringtail - I don't believe UHF 36 is an option. All stations will operate on UHF 35 & below once the repack is fully implemented, if I'm not mistaken.
MW, i thought WMNT-CD is staying on UHF 36 after the repack is done...

I never had much luck in picking up stations from Lansing. Only a couple times have i managed to pick up WLNS, WILX and WSYM in the analog AND digital eras... they're *very* hard to catch. I would think that Ann Arbor and Brighton would be the farthest east that they could be even semi-reliably recieved....


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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:24 pm

36 is top-channel after the repacking is done, not 35.

I think 36 was the intended top channel all along. It makes sense as it allowed for a guard band between DTV and wireless services (Channel 37 being reserved for radioastronomy and a small part of 38 not being used for wireless).

Splounge: could you make a map of the three contours with WHNE's pattern at 1kW?



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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:32 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:24 pm
36 is top-channel after the repacking is done, not 35.

I think 36 was the intended top channel all along. It makes sense as it allowed for a guard band between DTV and wireless services (Channel 37 being reserved for radioastronomy and a small part of 38 not being used for wireless).

Splounge: could you make a map of the three contours with WHNE's pattern at 1kW?
You mean WNEM, CFTV, and WHNE? Why would WHNE have to go down to 1kw?


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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:36 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:21 am
That axe blade shaped directional pattern would be highly difficult to implement in practice. The manufacturing cost of a directional transmitting antenna built to those specifications would likely be very expensive, assuming the design is even feasible for a video signal.

Even if that pattern *were* feasible, I am not so sure going co-channel with WNEM is the best idea. That could lead to reception issues in places like White Lake Twp., Milford, Waterford, Clarkston, Hartland, Highland Twp., Brighton, etc. True, the co-channel effects probably would be less bothersome than the reception issues caused by usage of VHF 3. Many indoor and even some outdoor antenna designs these days are designed for reception of only channels VHF 7 & above.

Ringtail - I don't believe UHF 36 is an option. All stations will operate on UHF 35 & below once the repack is fully implemented, if I'm not mistaken.
WXNY-LD NYC recently applied to use one of those axe-blade patterns. But WHNE may not have to be as axe-blade as I thought, I found out that Industry Canada only gives Digital Low Power UHFs protection contours of 51-20log(615/Middle Frequency) dBu.

EDIT: Here's the source of the Canadian LPTV protection contour strength, specifically, pages 2-4: https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.n ... r10-i1.pdf


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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by CK-722 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:32 pm

I think it is 36, but I could be wrong. Channel 37 is still reserved for Radio Telescopes.

Treaty protection is often more stringent than domestic protection. However, overlap over bodies of water are excluded, and foreign countries (like Canada) only receive protection on land in the foreign country of origin. Islands, at least populated ones, are NOT excluded. The domestic station still has to protect itself, at least according to domestic rules. Another divided by 15 power factor, may NOT be an option. Have to look for digital, but ANALOG TV STATIONS could only use a 10 dB MAX/MIN DA. FM STATIONS can only use 15 dB MAX/MIN. International Treaties are nominally 20 dB MAX/MIN. But WNEM is in the USA, so that wouldn't matter. There's a loophole about a certain number of "squares" of interference, I believe 30 seconds by 30 seconds, as predicted by Longley Rice. But I don't know if the Clarkston "Mountain Range" would allow it. Mt. Morris, Mt. Clemens, and Mt. Pleasant are not mountains, but Mt. Holly, Mt. Brighton, Mt. Grampian, Mt. Christie, Trombley Mountain, and Peach Mountain ARE, sort of.:)


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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:01 pm

Splouge wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:32 pm
innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:24 pm
36 is top-channel after the repacking is done, not 35.

I think 36 was the intended top channel all along. It makes sense as it allowed for a guard band between DTV and wireless services (Channel 37 being reserved for radioastronomy and a small part of 38 not being used for wireless).

Splounge: could you make a map of the three contours with WHNE's pattern at 1kW?
You mean WNEM, CFTV, and WHNE? Why would WHNE have to go down to 1kw?
Because it's the power limit at which calculated DA WHNE-LD will not interfere with WNEM nor CFTV (See 47CFR§73.623).
Last edited by innate-in-you on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:02 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:01 pm
Splouge wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:32 pm
innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:24 pm
36 is top-channel after the repacking is done, not 35.

I think 36 was the intended top channel all along. It makes sense as it allowed for a guard band between DTV and wireless services (Channel 37 being reserved for radioastronomy and a small part of 38 not being used for wireless).

Splounge: could you make a map of the three contours with WHNE's pattern at 1kW?
You mean WNEM, CFTV, and WHNE? Why would WHNE have to go down to 1kw?
Because it's the power limit at which calculated DA WHNE-LD will not interfere with WNEN nor CFTV (See 47CFR§73.623).
Which part of 47CFR§73.623 are you referring to?


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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by innate-in-you » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:49 pm

Go to govregs.com
Go to §73.623
Find the first table, first category on table is D/U Ratio.......Co-channel", third line reads "DTV into DTV......+15".

Strange suprise LII seems to have either left the table out of their site, or my smartphone could not open the table.

I am quite sure that the co-channel D/U r.atio is not 1:1.



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Splouge
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:35 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:49 pm
Go to govregs.com
Go to §73.623
Find the first table, first category on table is D/U Ratio.......Co-channel", third line reads "DTV into DTV......+15".

Strange suprise LII seems to have either left the table out of their site, or my smartphone could not open the table.

I am quite sure that the co-channel D/U r.atio is not 1:1.
It's 15:1, meaning WNEM's contour extends to WHNE's TRANSMITTER! Well that's out of the question


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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:14 pm

Interesting info regarding the availability of RF 36; thanks everyone.

Aside from WMNT-CA, is anyone else nearby using 36? I wonder how far north WMNT-CA's protected contour extends?



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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Splouge » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:25 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:14 pm
Interesting info regarding the availability of RF 36; thanks everyone.

Aside from WMNT-CA, is anyone else nearby using 36? I wonder how far north WMNT-CA's protected contour extends?
WAQP Saginaw is, and WMNT goes all the way to Trenton and Romulus


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fuzzpower
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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by fuzzpower » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:21 pm

Years ago, WPXD wanted to move to RF 19 from Southfield, however Canada objected because of a London station (can’t remember the calls). They ended up stuck in Lyndon Twp. until RF 50 was finally approved.

Canada doesn’t want more US stations available if they can help it.



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Re: Why can't WHNE go to UHF 30?

Post by Gerald1981! » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:35 pm

Excuse me, fuzzpower. It was CKXT-DT-2 in London, ON, CAN, which it was on Channel 19 RF and virtual before they shut down in November 2011.



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