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WLAV's failed tower move to Butterworth dump site, and now - the aftermath!

Discussion pertaining to Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Battle Creek, Big Rapids, and Michiana
Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:29 pm

The online FAA Chart not being accurate is something we should be concerned about, if indeed there is no tower there, and the WLAV tower was in the wrong place. After all that registration and coordinate correction, you would think it would be more accurate. Still say locate it close to the old site to preserve the Class B service area as much as possible.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

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Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 pm

WIOG moved across the street when they had to leave the WNEM-TV tower. I realize that that area is probably becoming invaded by NIMBYs. But they never seem to be able to stop a new cell tower installation. Just tell people their cell calls will keep dropping without the new tower. And they will keep dropping and data access will keep slowing down.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

KC8YQQ
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by KC8YQQ » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 pm

If you download Google Earth, FCCInfo has a plugin where you can view a tower and what stations are on it. This comes in real handy when I'm wandering around with a camera in my hand.

More info here: http://fccinfo.com/fccinfo_google_earth.php



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MWmetalhead
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:41 am



Apparently, the station is still going to try to make a "go" of the WFUR-FM tower site with some sort of structural reinforcement. Good luck with that.


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

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TheGadgetGuy
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by TheGadgetGuy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:13 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:41 am
Apparently, the station is still going to try to make a "go" of the WFUR-FM tower site with some sort of structural reinforcement. Good luck with that.
Interesting. I'm not exactly sure what all the structural reinforcement would involve, but you'd think that they would have tried that before these STA facilities became necessary.



Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:18 pm

TheGadgetGuy wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:13 pm
MWmetalhead wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:41 am
Apparently, the station is still going to try to make a "go" of the WFUR-FM tower site with some sort of structural reinforcement. Good luck with that.
Interesting. I'm not exactly sure what all the structural reinforcement would involve, but you'd think that they would have tried that before these STA facilities became necessary.
A similar situation occurred when WFBE had to relocate, and chose to use the 370 foot North Tower of the WTRX array. Plans to use that tower to mount an FM transmitting antenna went back to 1948 when WBBC-FM 99.9 (NOT a typo) was going to use it. It was unfortunately never built. Considerable time and expense went into reinforcing the tower for the WFBE antenna more recently, and also WFBE went more directional and decreased ERP. Changes in Section 73.215 would have allowed it to be 50 kW nondirectional at the Flint Central tower site at the time that change was made.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

bosco
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by bosco » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:23 pm

The 475 foot tower by Honey Creek and 3 mile with these coordinates:

43 01 00 N 85 28 45 W

Is the Michigan State Police tower.

And I was invited by LAV's chief engineer to witness the tower dropping, as I installed it 40 years ago. Tried to get the owner in '78 to buy the land, but no dice. So the 20+20 years lease expired.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 pm

The 475 foot tower by Honey Creek and 3 mile with these coordinates:

43 01 00 N 85 28 45 W

Is the Michigan State Police tower.
Finally...mystery solved! :)

Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, how long has that tower been there? I presume it was built when the state police transitioned to a trunked radio system in the 800 MHz band?

Dealing with state bureaucracy is a pain in the neck. Now that we know who the owner is, it is easier to understand why WLAV simply didn't apply to relocate to that nearby tower.

I believe this is the one:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/ ... gn=WPNT242


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by audiophile » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:10 am

The state will never allow them on that tower.


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phillyb
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by phillyb » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:20 pm

WFUR-FM has been operating at reduced power for several days now.

I wonder if this is because work is being done on their tower to prep it for the move of WLAV?

Is anyone is in the position to swing by the WFUR tower site and see if anything is going on?



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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:10 pm

A rare chance, maybe, to hear 102.9 The Hog out of Milwaukee near the lakeshore? 8o


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by sand2dunes » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:00 pm

Driving around in Grand Haven/Ferrysburg, the reception of WLAV is terrible.



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MWmetalhead
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:02 pm

Semi-hot off the presses, from WLAV's Facebook page (posted on July 25):
We are in the process of moving our transmitter site (not our choice, the land we leased was sold to developers).

All 3 of the sites we chose (& were in FCC compliance) were deemed structurally unfit for us to be able to add our antenna too (sic).
We are now at a temporary site at reduced power....to keep within FCC compliance.

We hope to improve the signal within a week or so. Hopefully the signal will get better a short time after that with new equipment that is currently being manufactured. That equipment then has to be tested & approved.

All that while we are waiting on a zoning variance at a location that is not far from where our old tower was located. Once the variance is approved we can then begin to build the new site.

Thanks for your patience....
So, it turns out the WFUR-FM site is indeed a NO GO. The rumor I read on YouTube was apparently untrue.

Looks like this saga is going to end no time soon!!! We'll be lucky if LAV is up & running from a new permanent site before the snow starts to fly.

I wonder what type of "new equipment" is referenced above? Could it be microcell repeaters similar to what WIIL-FM has used in parts of the Milwaukee metro area? Or will the "new equipment" simply get the station up to the 20 kW specified in the STA application?

I also wonder which existing tower sites were the other two candidates being considered? Apparently, Cumulus must really dislike the WTNR and WBBL sites as permanent options, for whatever reason. (I presume the WTNR and WBBL sites weren't among the "structurally unfit" sites teased in the Facebook post.) Is it because use of either of those two sites would be considered a major change (as opposed to a minor modification) for FCC application purposes? Either site is close enough to GR to qualify Grand Rapids as an eligible city of license.

All I know is 93.1 WMPA in Grand Haven picked a brilliant time to flip to Classic Rock.


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:40 am

There are ways around the F(50,50) 70 dBu city grade requirement such as Longley Rice modeling. Remember that WBBL is a Greenville station. Not sure if they hit all of Grand Rapids with an F(50,50) 70 dBu signal. WTNR Holland site would also have to be more directional than at the WFUR-FM site. I think they are on the right track with the WIOG approach-as close as possible to the old site. Assuming they can get over Zoning, NIMBY, Archeological Studies, Environmental Impact Studies, etc., hurdles. Even if they had to reduce ERP slightly, like 80-90% of Class B maximum for height, to meet requirements, that would be better than "slightly" directional, as the result is often disappointing, because it's really hard to beat advantages of nondirectional on FM. Remember that DA ERP is the maximum in any direction, nearly all other directions are less in the measured pattern, regardless of the requirements and stylized pattern which shows 1.000 relative field in most directions. Nondirectional ERP is actually the average ERP of all directions.


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"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by ftballfan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:55 pm

I sense a format swap between 96.9 and 107.3 incoming, with LAV moving to 107.3 and BBL moving to 96.9 (which would downgrade to B1 and change COL to Lowell). If 96.9 were to downgrade to B1, could the 96.9 in Standish upgrade to a full Class A (they're only a 3kW A)?



Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:41 pm

I don't think anything as drastic as downgrading to Class B1 will be necessary because of water overlap exclusion and grandfathered Section 73.213 status. Remember that they would still require a taller tower close to 500 feet HAAT to serve the terrain of "The Valley City" well. That would only allow about 11 kW. Class B1 in reality is close to 7 dB down from Class B. And CMU already has service area redundancy.

Downgrading to a lower Class rarely makes sense unless the tower would otherwise have to be located way out in the middle of nowhere in a thinly populated area or is otherwise inaccessible. I am also reminded of where the mythical KBHR on Northern Exposure "upgraded" so that the station could be heard for 200 miles. The Cicely townspeople reminded the owner, Maurice Minnifield, that no one lived in the expanded service area.

I posted the following on another thread. Keep in mind that I still think the closer to the old site the better, but I wonder if this has been considered if there are too many obstacles to relocating close to the old tower.

The WJRW 1340 tower is also located quite near the WFUR-FM tower. The FAA would probably allow another similar height tower under the "umbrella" of that tower. Perhaps they could replace the WJRW tower with a higher one for WLAV and use a skirting arrangement for WJRW of the proper electrical height, if that makes a difference in getting a site approved.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Arthur or any other FCC spacing rules expert: please help us understand why WLAV needs to have a null toward Holland from, say, the WFUR-FM site.

Wouldn't any & all interference with WWDV Zion, IL occur over Lake Michigan?

My guess is WLAV wants to build its new tower right next door to the Michigan State Police tower. That would certainly make a lot of sense. That tract of land is a good seven miles closer to downtown Grand Rapids than the WBBL site. Still begs the question why on earth the structural deficiencies of the WFUR-FM site weren't unearthed much sooner?!

The folks at Cumulus better pray to God that their zoning variance request is approved. Seems odd that they are doing only 20 kW directional from such a low height at the WBBL site. Why not do 40 kW or even 50 kW directional? In the direction of WQHH, they could probably get away with 15 kW.


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by MWmetalhead » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:11 pm

One thing Cumulus can and should do immediately to fill in some of WLAV's coverage gaps is toss the low rated Nash Icon format at 92.5 MHz to the curb for a while in favor of an LAV simulcast.

Nash Icon's billing is minimal. Can't possibly be more than $200,000 a year.

Such a move won't help Holland or Hudsonville area listeners one bit, but at least it would help with coverage in northern Ottawa, NW Kent, Newaygo and Muskegon counties.


Radio's downfall has been under-investing in its core competency and becoming distracted by delusions of grandeur by thinking development of a half-assed national digital strategy will somehow put it on par with the Facebooks and Googles of the world.

Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:07 pm



"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

Arthur Mometer
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Re: WLAV-FM has filed to change its main tower site to WFUR-FM's site!

Post by Arthur Mometer » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:24 pm

Under newer Section 73.213 provisions, the proposed interference area over land FROM WWDV must lie within the existing licensed interference area over land FROM WWDV. There is interference to the existing and proposed facility under the pertinent paragraph of Section 73.213.

Interference TO WWDV lies completely over water for both the proposed and existing licensed facilities.

Other stations are short spaced or close to being short spaced from the WFUR-FM tower. The short spaced station is compliant with Section 73.215. The close ones depend on where exactly the new site is. WWCM is currently licensed as a 3 kW Class A. It would be short spaced under 6 kW Class A Rules.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

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