Acceptable registrations in the queue through March 16 at 11:00a ET have now been activated. Enjoy! -M.W.

Terms of Use have been amended effective October 6, 2019. Make sure you are aware of the new rules! Please visit this thread for details: https://www.mibuzzboard.com/phpBB3/view ... 16&t=48619

WPON WCXI Updates - 2020

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
Arthur Mometer
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Radar Room

About Those Translators

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:18 am

Oh, about those translators. There is no way even a 250 watt translator, even nondirectional, even on those Royal Oak Township antenna farm towers, can serve Detroit Metro adequately. Thats why the full power FMs are somewhere in the 50-100 kW from 500 feet equivalent range, as grandfathered. There are so many signal holes and cochannels in the US and Canada, that AM stations like WDTW, WDTK, and WLQV are much easier to listen to in a moving car than the FM translators are.
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

Arthur Mometer
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Radar Room

Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:19 pm

Right out of the box, the proposed WCXI Night pattern is barely under the permissible radiation toward WYLL with 215 watts. They'd have to change the pattern and reduce the back lobe toward WYLL just to get back to ~1 kW to apply for Class B facilities that don't cover Fenton, the COL, with the required NIF, under proposed new rules. That part is apparently in force, since WPON applied for 580 watts with an NIF that doesn't cover Walled Lake.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=1

Description of Proposed WCXI Site

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=1

WUFL 270 Degree Radial. That site is at the Latitude equivalent to 18 1/2 Mile Road. The WPON WCXI site is at the Latitude equivalent to 15 1/2 Mile Road. So it's pretty close to the 270 degree radial, about 265 degrees. Plus the WDEO radial goes near there from the South. One of my next projects is to reverse that radial. If you look at the curve matching to the points along the 6 mS/m part near the West end, it's closer to 4 or 5 than 6. I'm going to break that radial section into two. I use the old graphs in miles form the 1960 NAB Engineering Handbook to map the radial out to road maps.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Att ... &exhcnum=2

Here's the Michigan Quaternary Geology Map. The County Maps from MSU have been moved or are no longer available. Except for the annoying red striation lines, this is basically the same map. If you look, the extreme SE corner is light blue and darker blue, then you get into the sandier gravelly region around SQRLK and Telegraph. The major ski areas of Oakland County are pink (0.1 to 1 on CDBS Apps), like Roscommon County and Southern Otsego County. The NW corner of Oakland is a sort of olive, like Mecosta County (1.5 to 3 on Paper Apps Jack W. showed me). All of these reduced from M-3 prediction are supported by actual FI measurements across Oakland County to WCXI 1160, the old WSNL 600 and WFDF 910 (when properly maintained, consistently 128 uV/m in the Summer, it fell to 50 uV/m when they stopped maintaining it well before moving. Bill S. and Dan G. fixed it and replaced transmission lines before that, based on my reports, probably the last time it was extensively repaired) facilities, WTRX 1330, WFNT 1470, and WWCK (AM) 1570, that I made when Del and Ed C. loaned me FI meters for extended periods in the early 1990s. Thanks to them for that. Also very much below M-3 prediction was WXYT 1270 5 kW 20777 10 Mile location (2.4 mV/m Daytime). WWJ 950 5 kW from 8 Mile and Meyers in ROT (20 mV/m Daytime) was much closer to M-3 prediction.

The WMU site has been removed.

https://wmich.edu/sites/default/ilifile ... gy_Map.pdf

New link to original map.

https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/Prodesc/proddesc_71889.htm
Last edited by Arthur Mometer on Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by innate-in-you » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:31 pm

Let's be honest, WCXI will be a de facto daytimer, the Hall/Gratiot signal strength will be significant to how well the 15kW signal will cover Oakland and Macomb counties during daytime. They could announce a stream site repeatedly to court nighttime listeners, but a lot of people find streaming inconvenient. Hooking my smart phone to my car audio input to listen to WGVU is a pain, and forget changing streams while driving. Thus an FM translator could help them (alas, I suspect there isn't more room for any new ones).

1983 was the year I became obsessed with learning about the radio business, after following the struggle, and, ultimately death, of 1430 WBRB, where I first heard a lot of great songs that were so old, they were new to me. I read all about directional arrays, C-Quam, ISB, critical hours, soil conductivity, et al.

I'll never forget the drive up north that summer, how 990 Clare dropped out so abruptly, and the tiny coverages of WATT and the old (1400) WTCM. And being AMazed again decades later listening to KAYS along 200 miles of I-70.



Arthur Mometer
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Radar Room

Re: WPON Update - 2018

Post by Arthur Mometer » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:01 pm

innate-in-you wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:31 pm
Let's be honest, WCXI will be a de facto daytimer, the Hall/Gratiot signal strength will be significant to how well the 15kW signal will cover Oakland and Macomb counties during daytime. They could announce a stream site repeatedly to court nighttime listeners, but a lot of people find streaming inconvenient. Hooking my smart phone to my car audio input to listen to WGVU is a pain, and forget changing streams while driving. Thus an FM translator could help them (alas, I suspect there isn't more room for any new ones).

1983 was the year I became obsessed with learning about the radio business, after following the struggle, and, ultimately death, of 1430 WBRB, where I first heard a lot of great songs that were so old, they were new to me. I read all about directional arrays, C-Quam, ISB, critical hours, soil conductivity, et al.

I'll never forget the drive up north that summer, how 990 Clare dropped out so abruptly, and the tiny coverages of WATT and the old (1400) WTCM. And being AMazed again decades later listening to KAYS along 200 miles of I-70.
Well, let's look at the POPs for WPON if they are ever available.

I'm going to reverse that 270 radial, and you will see a fair estimate. Again, if you really want Hall Rd. and Gratiot, we're talking 50 kW power bills, not even 15 kW, IMHO, if you want to get into honesty. My RL is 30 miles, so that is probably around 35 miles. There is also a sandy area around the WUFL site, plus a lot of development, and the conductivity is reduced around that site if you look at that one link.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

SixPlusOne
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:03 am

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by SixPlusOne » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:13 pm

Arthur Mometer wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 pm

I am thirty miles East of the new WPON WCXI site, and can barely hear WPON on a GE SuperRadio II when it is on. In CH, I hear WBRN, WKAM, and WBNS, even when it is on. Either it is not running 250 watts, or the conductivity is really bad at the site.
I am about 3 or 4 miles east from the site so I can get them if they're on however I haven't detected them on the air now for almost 3 weeks.



User avatar
Ed Joseph
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm

Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.


I confirm all my information through a high, white whore's souse!

Arthur Mometer
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Radar Room

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Arthur Mometer » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:54 pm

Ed Joseph wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm
Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.
As far as I can tell, they are using the North Rd. site. Weren't you out there with the late great Don McComb as assistant CE and the late great Johnny Cole? And the late great Tom Knight who was murdered, reportedly so they could sell his record collection?

As far as format, I would go Foreign Language Days to Oakland Macomb Wayne, and Oldies Nights to Genesee County, with an optimal array at Night which would have to be North to have any power >~1kW. There's plenty of towers there, some might have to be moved around. Despite what somebody said here, they can't go much to the ESE Night like the old WJJD Night Pattern. Or just keep the North Rd. site for Nights. It's in wetlands next to Lake Ponemah aka Mud Lake, and I doubt that it could be sold soon. What part of Mud don't they understand? I don't know why they couldn't keep it for Studios either. Ernie Durham and Casey Kasem did similar daily treks before I-75, I-96, and the US-23 Expressway. US-23 was no big deal for Landecker either. It builds character and obviously success. And the list goes on and on. Bob Liggett, Joe Wade Formicola, Bob Burchett, and more. Bill Pearson's Oxford commute was nothing.

Also, Don McComb went from his home in Flushing to Saginaw, Lapeer, and Ypsilanti as I recall.


"I'm meteorologist Arthur Mometer."

"Those of you who think you know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."

"Lies have to be repeated and repeated to be believed. Truth stands on its own merit."

innate-in-you
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:54 am

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by innate-in-you » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:46 pm

Ed Joseph wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:45 pm
Is 1160 still using the North Rd towers in Fenton?

I recall, from the WFEN/WACY era, the station was decent at the Flint township/Mt Morris township border, even at night. It was listenable anyway. WFEN was originated as a local service to the Fenton and northern Livingston/southern Genesee county station. I often wonder why some owners bother to spend millions to build a small local up in an attempt to compete with large markets where they will just be another noise on the already overcrowded dial. In *many* cases, the "move-in" scenario is a vast waste of money IMO.

But thus, it is part of the big problem with AM radio in general, the move away from being the local community's voice to canned, urban splatter with no evident target audience. You have to put something worth listening to on the dial to get listeners, and very few stations are doing that now. Those that do, and are staying the "community voice", such as WION, are doing well. However, it appears many "move-ins" and "rimshots" seem to have to fight to just keep the transmitter working 100%, because they're really just another "nothing" on the dial.

I also wish that BBC would change the calls back to WFEN. It would make more sense with WPON Pontiac. Just my thoughts.
Of course, keep in mind that the FCC had (and still has) a preference for granting CPs to smaller communities that lack a local station, which, it is hoped, will provide a local service, allowing local advertisers to court customers, and serve as a medium for local discussion. This was the newer version of the program in the 1950s of encouraging the construction of an AM in every county seat, Class 4/C if a local channel frequency were available, Class D if not).

Problem came when people still preferred the stations from cities within their range, with more choices of formats and more polished presentation. Fenton had a good number of relatively strong signals before WFEN came along, and WFEN had to compete with all of them.

WFEN got its CP over WWHK (1430 Mt. Clemens, other times known as WBRB). WWHK also sought 1160 for a (IIRC) six-tower array beaming northward- giving better coverage of the Thumb than the Detroit metro area. WBRB was declined because Mt. Clemens was considered to be in the Detroit metro area, whereas Fenton was not.



CK-722
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by CK-722 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:43 pm

I another thread, which disappeared in the attack, and on the WBRB History Card, the 3 original WBRB towers were at 44450 Hayes Rd., just South of the present day Lowes store. It is a wetland also, and was largely under water earlier this past week. The soil is clay there, and the water stays a long time on top compared to the sand just West of there.

https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/ ... r_id=50845

Image


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

User avatar
Ed Joseph
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 pm

Arthur Mometer wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:54 pm

As far as I can tell, they are using the North Rd. site. Weren't you out there with the late great Don McComb as assistant CE and the late great Johnny Cole? And the late great Tom Knight who was murdered, reportedly so they could sell his record collection?

As far as format, I would go Foreign Language Days to Oakland Macomb Wayne, and Oldies Nights to Genesee County, with an optimal array at Night which would have to be North to have any power >~1kW. There's plenty of towers there, some might have to be moved around. Despite what somebody said here, they can't go much to the ESE Night like the old WJJD Night Pattern. Or just keep the North Rd. site for Nights. It's in wetlands next to Lake Ponemah aka Mud Lake, and I doubt that it could be sold soon. What part of Mud don't they understand? I don't know why they couldn't keep it for Studios either. Ernie Durham and Casey Kasem did similar daily treks before I-75, I-96, and the US-23 Expressway. US-23 was no big deal for Landecker either. It builds character and obviously success. And the list goes on and on. Bob Liggett, Joe Wade Formicola, Bob Burchett, and more. Bill Pearson's Oxford commute was nothing.

Also, Don McComb went from his home in Flushing to Saginaw, Lapeer, and Ypsilanti as I recall.
In fact, I had met Tom Knight before he was involved with WACY, when I was still at WTRX and he was still "record librarian" for Liggett. It was actually Tom and I who came up with the "wacy" idea one night at his house listening to records. We approached then-WFEN owner Don Olmsted with an idea to program an oldies format into Flint. However, this never happened until Deano bought 1160. It was Tom who rattled that chain.

I actually stopped in the place way back when WFEN first went on, and adjusted their non-tweaked Optimod and corrected the phase of the audio. Station sounded a world and a half better when I left.

At one time, Don and I had like 4 or 5 stations we were chipping away at. I worked with Don right up until I went to work for the Big 3 in 1998 and even a few times after, while I was on layoff. I loved his house in Flushing. His basement was awesome. :)

He sure kept that Cavalier wagon going... WHNN, WIOG, WSGW, WMAX/WUNI, several stations in Flint, and even further north. Bear Lake, for one.


I confirm all my information through a high, white whore's souse!

User avatar
Ed Joseph
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:52 pm

Damn... I hadn't thought of WWHK/WBRB in decades either.


I confirm all my information through a high, white whore's souse!

CK-722
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by CK-722 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:44 am

Don McComb lived in the next sub South from the late legendary DJ Ed McKenzie, AKA Jack The Bellboy from WJBK, and who shared some of his memorabilia and memories with some of that same circle of associates you describe at his house near Don's. Ed had retired to his native Flushing, disgusted with the state of Payola and tightly formatted radio circa 1959. There's a link I found to Ed McKenzie's first painful introduction to radio, at the home of Ira Sayre at 104 Mary St. in Flushing. It was most likely in 1925, right before WCX was dropped as shared time call letters with WJR. It's quite a house for that time. Check it out on Google Street and Satellite View. Sayre passed away in 1926.

Don McComb also worked at WYSI (now WSDS) in Ypsilanti.

http://carcitycountry.com/2012/wysi-wsd ... -part-one/

Snippet from Google Books about Ed McKenzie's rude introduction to radio in 1925.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5UNKB ... CX&f=false


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

CK-722
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by CK-722 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:04 am

I never saw the WBRB/WWHK 1160 application, but that sounds about right according to my calculations. It was 10000 watts Day and Night. I presume DA-2, but they probably would wait until they proofed it to get a more relaxed Day pattern, like WDRQ...WUFL 1030 did, letting out the deep nulls toward Detroit. The WUFL three tower DA rebuild toward the WSW was much more recent.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

User avatar
Ed Joseph
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:27 pm

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by Ed Joseph » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:27 pm

I would love to hear airchecks of Don's on-air work. Don just doesn't fit the mold of your typical DJ, but neither do I. I'm just *me* and some people can't deal well with that.


I confirm all my information through a high, white whore's souse!

SixPlusOne
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:03 am

Re: WPON Update - 2019

Post by SixPlusOne » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:02 pm

MWmetalhead wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:38 pm
The clowns at WPON were just fined $18,000 by the FCC.

https://radioinsight.com/headlines/1730 ... -activity/.
This is the FCC's take on what MWmetalhead posted. The letter to Birach Broadcasting:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/prod/c ... r_id=89353



Post Reply Previous topicNext topic