Trump privately supporting 16 week abortion ban

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And to complicate the issue, why do some babies "earn" the protection from the state because the medical system intervened in the course of normal pregnancy via caesarean delivery, while others (similarly in their development stage) do not get those protections until after natural birth?

Probably because one is out of the womb and therefore born and the other is not.

[TC Talks]

Ultimately, abortion is one of those issues that splits Americans fairly evenly

While personal beliefs of having an abortion may be equal, views on the protection of the right to an abortion very clearly favors choice:

Pew Research Center has conducted many surveys about abortion over the years, providing a lens into Americans’ views on whether the procedure should be legal, among a host of other questions. In a Center survey conducted after the Supreme Court’s June 2022 decision to end the constitutional right to abortion, 62% of U.S. adults said the practice should be legal in all or most cases, while 36% said it should be illegal in all or most cases. Another survey showed that relatively few Americans take an absolutist view on the issue.

[bmw]

Yeah, we've been over this before. I linked that very survey 2 years ago and earlier in this thread. You're distorting the numbers as only 25% believe it should be legal in ALL cases. The other 75% do believe in at least some type of restrictions. Dig through that survey data, you might just learn something. It breaks down people's views by week of pregnancy, and as I pointed out earlier, a small 51-47 majority believe abortion should be outright illegal beyond week 24.

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Yeah, we've been over this before. I linked that very survey 2 years ago and earlier in this thread. You're distorting the numbers as only 25% believe it should be legal in ALL cases. The other 75% do believe in at least some type of restrictions. Dig through that survey data, you might just learn something. It breaks down people's views by week of pregnancy, and as I pointed out earlier, a small 51-47 majority believe abortion should be outright illegal beyond week 24.

And abortion beyond week 24 is almost unheard of.

[zzand]

The only ones I have heard of after 24 weeks were in the case of stillborn or save the life of the mother. Both acceptable to me.

[bmw]

And that's a fair point. So why is Trump's (alleged) 16-week ban all that controversial to the left? Only 5% of abortions happen after week 16. Under a 16-week ban, 95% of all abortions would remain legal. And in fact, this is far more favorable to the pro-choice crowd than the pro-life crowd as we now have near-total bans in 12 states. Comparably speaking, a 16-week ban would effectively re-legalize 19 of every 20 abortions that are now illegal in those states.

That the left would never get onboard with such a policy tells me everything -I- need to know about just how extreme their view really is.

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And that's a fair point. So why is Trump's (alleged) 16-week ban all that controversial to the left? Only 5% of abortions happen after week 16. Under a 16-week ban, 95% of all abortions would remain legal. And in fact, this is far more favorable to the pro-choice crowd than the pro-life crowd as we now have near-total bans in 12 states. Comparably speaking, a 16-week ban would effectively re-legalize 19 of every 20 abortions that are now illegal in those states.

That the left would never get onboard with such a policy tells me everything -I- need to know about just how extreme their view really is.

Because that other 5% are going to be the most fucked up cases that are gonna be illegal. The farther you get into it the more likely it’s for some other reason that inconvenience. So still birth, won’t survive long has horrifying defects… some of that can’t be found until after 16 weeks. Those that want options for emergencies will go nuts if you cut that off at 16 weeks.

[bmw]

So make it a 16-week ban with exceptions. You're then essentially legalizing 98-99 percent of all abortions.

I suspect that many pro-choice people would oppose even that.

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So make it a 16-week ban with exceptions. You're then essentially legalizing 98-99 percent of all abortions.

I suspect that many pro-choice people would oppose even that.

Mostly on principle. It’s not anyone else’s business on this liberals and libertarians are in agreement.

[bmw]

True libertarians believe in the harm principle, which I discussed in-depth above. The only way a libertarian could conclude that abortions should be legal 100 percent of the time is by also concluding that the rights of the unborn under no circumstance outweigh the rights of the mother. Which, if that's your conclusion, then fine. But to those people, I then pose the question of what is so special about the moment of birth that makes that anything other than an arbitrary moment? Babies are certainly viable before that moment, and as I noted earlier, don't begin developing memories for upwards of another 5 months. So if that unborn child is nothing more (legally speaking) than property of the mother while it is in the mother's body, why is it not still the property of the mother afterwards?

[Matt]

And to complicate the issue, why do some babies "earn" the protection from the state because the medical system intervened in the course of normal pregnancy via caesarean delivery, while others (similarly in their development stage) do not get those protections until after natural birth?

Uh, a C-section is a procedure that is elective, not a medical system intervention.

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True libertarians believe in the harm principle, which I discussed in-depth above. The only way a libertarian could conclude that abortions should be legal 100 percent of the time is by also concluding that the rights of the unborn under no circumstance outweigh the rights of the mother. Which, if that's your conclusion, then fine. But to those people, I then pose the question of what is so special about the moment of birth that makes that anything other than an arbitrary moment? Babies are certainly viable before that moment, and as I noted earlier, don't begin developing memories for upwards of another 5 months. So if that unborn child is nothing more (legally speaking) than property of the mother while it is in the mother's body, why is it not still the property of the mother afterwards?

For the same reason the Bible says that you’re alive when you’re born… given the breath of life or whatever it is. Then the fetus becomes an individual entity known from then on as a baby. It’s not arbitrary. It’s a complete status change from being literally tethered to another being to being independent of that being.

As a biological matter the reason babies take 9 months or so to walk and are so helpless is because our heads (and the kid in general) are too big to pass through the birth canal after 9 months or so… so theoretically a full term baby is still premature compared to other mammals that stand up within a few hours of being born.

[TC Talks]

So make it a 16-week ban with exceptions. You're then essentially legalizing 98-99 percent of all abortions.

I suspect that many pro-choice people would oppose even that.

Would you agree with a partial gun ban?

[bmw]

If you want to ban the 5% of weapons that are the most dangerous and keep the other 95% legal - sure, count me in.

[TC Talks]

If you want to ban the 5% of weapons that are the most dangerous and keep the other 95% legal - sure, count me in.

So assault rifles should be banded?

Here's what always cracks me up. You have these moral streaks, yet you support the most immorale President to hold office in a century.