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87.7/87.9 Brighton

Discussion pertaining to Detroit, Ann Arbor, Port Huron, and SW Ontario
Mega Hertz
Posts: 4265
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Brighton

87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Wed May 22, 2019 12:26 pm

Well this is strange.

While driving along Grand River near downtown Brighton, something is broadcasting on 87.7 (technically 87.75) and there's been a LOT of commercials. Now it's playing that dumb ass Ariana Grande "I'm a whore so lose your girlfriend and hook up with me" so-called song. No ID or anything like that. I didn't think anyone broadcasted on those frequencies anymore. And 87.9 seems to have a dead carrier, silent stereo signal. Just noticed these today, they were static yesterday.

Anyone have any further information as to what might be happening?

Edit: it's broadcasting 103.5 Kiss FM. How the hell am I getting a Chicago FM station on 87.7!? Someone smarter than me explain this!


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CK-722
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Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:37 pm

Somebody is probably rebroadcasting the Internet feed of WKFM, er, whatever it is now. It really doesn't take much power to be heard in a small area like that. However, it technically violates Part 15 and is a pirate, if it can be heard more than 50 feet or so under ideal circumstances. They can get their transmitter smashed and a big fine. The legal FM transmitters designed for using with your car FM radio have trouble reaching from the back seat, and thats only if there is no cochannel station operating nearby. It's like the OTC pills that Mother gives you in "White Rabbit", they "don't do anything at all" if they are legal. The days of Tom Kneitel and no one caring about small FM pirates are gone.

103.5 Chicago will always be WKFM to me. It's the station my Uncle always listened to on his KLH FM only radio and turntable when we visited NW Suburban Chicago. Come to think of it, it mixed with WNWC 92.7 Arlington Heights (10.8 MHz IF), and was heard all over the dial on his Zenith Table Radio. That and RITOIE was a problem for those Zeniths. It was my first exposure to RITOIE and FM IF problems. The next was over near WWCK and WGMZ on 103.1 over near their towers. Another Zenith Table Radio.


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Mega Hertz
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Location: Brighton

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Wed May 22, 2019 1:01 pm

Thanks for your reply!

The signal disappeared in under a half a mile. Broadcasting on channel 6 I assume. Both 87.7 and 87.9 went back to static before I hit downtown. It was strongest by Meijer. Really cool catch, though.


"Internet is no more like radio than intravenous feeding is like fine dining."
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Deleted User 15003

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Deleted User 15003 » Wed May 22, 2019 1:09 pm

Could be just a car auxiliary transmitter for a cell phone and perhaps you stayed nearby the vehicle that was using it.



Deleted User 14992

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Deleted User 14992 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:38 pm

I have one of those car transmitters and it transmits 3 houses away, I can select 88.1-88.9 bought it a a Five Below store.



CK-722
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Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 22, 2019 2:53 pm

I stayed overnight in Brighton several weeks ago for a Continuing Education at Cleary in Howell. I noticed that there was a lot of RITOIE on the hotel room clock alarm radio, but none on the Buick GM Delco car radio. The strongest signals there are WUOM 91.7, WTAC 89.7, and WHMI 93.5, between V-Soft for 48114 and FM Fool. I thought maybe it was WHMI, but wasn't sure if that format would play it. CCM sounds a lot like Pop/AC, but that theme wouldn't fit the CCM format on 89.7. The RITOIE product of 91.7 and 89.7 would be on 88.7 though. What brand of car radio do you have? Delco type FM radios would have suppressed that for the last 40-50 years. The fact that my Buick radio suppressed it indicates that it was not radiated intermodulation.


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Mega Hertz
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Brighton

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Wed May 22, 2019 3:26 pm

It's a stock 1999 Ford system.


"Internet is no more like radio than intravenous feeding is like fine dining."
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CK-722
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Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 22, 2019 6:47 pm

I think GM and Ford have had some kind of mutual licensing agreements for those types of performance issues. Since Delco invented most of them, including seek and scan, originally marketed as the "Wonder Bar" back around 1960, there is probably a net income to GM from the mutual licensing agreements, probably allowing GM to use any Ford patents also. When I have had the chance to play with a Ford radio, it was comparable, but much better than after market products.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

Mega Hertz
Posts: 4265
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Brighton

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Wed May 22, 2019 7:55 pm

What is RITOIE? I'm not familiar with that term.


"Internet is no more like radio than intravenous feeding is like fine dining."
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Deleted User 15003

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Deleted User 15003 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 pm

I honestly think that you were receiving a car transmitter for a cell phone.



CK-722
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:24 pm

Mega Hertz wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:55 pm
What is RITOIE? I'm not familiar with that term.
RITOIE stands for Receiver Induced Third Order Intermodulation Effects.

The two strongest FMs in 48114 are on 89.7 and 91.7.

2 X A - B = 2 X 89.7 - 91.7 = 179.4 - 91.7 = 88.7

2 X B - A = 2 X 91.7 - 89.7 = 183.4 - 89.7 = 93.7

A and B are the frequencies of two strong signals. They mix inside the radio to create the 2 X Harmonic and mix with the amplified fundamental frequency to produce these products.

If you are into Music Theory, it's quite similar. With the loud or sustain pedal down on the Piano, as you hit one note, you'll hear it exciting the string one octave above (2 X), an additional fifth (3 X), and 2 octaves (4 X), so if you hit A 220 Hz, just below middle C, you'll excite A 440, E ~660, A 880, etc. The harmonics get closer and closer together in interval as you go higher, like a bugle. Then they will mix to produce sum and difference frequencies and excite strings all over the Piano above A 220, and difference frequencies and audio "intermodulation" below A 220. Hit a few keys, and you'll have almost all strings excited. I learned this first in Music Theory, then my Amateur neighbor Chris Peeters (WA8RYE, now K8RY), and a great Musician/Cellist, taught me that radio frequencies behaved the same way, when I was about 12, and later I learned these principles in more detail in HS and College, Graduate, and Professional School Physics Courses. Strings and Air Columns behave like antennas and very narrow waveguides in their resonance properties. The thicker the string or column, the wider the "bandwidth" of the resonance and unique harmonic response. The audio frequency on a string has the same kind of response as an antenna wire, with nodes at 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc. This is very important in guitar harmonics at the 12th (2 X) and 19th frets (3 X). I think the 24th fret, if it existed, is 4 X, according to my calculations. The A string on the Guitar (5th String, counting from the bottom) is A 110 Hz. The damping pads on the piano suppress these combinations, like detuning them or running them through a resonant cavity filter. An organ pipe is designed to resonate at harmonics with varying amplitudes to simulate different instruments. This has to do with the diameter of the pipe and other properties, enhancing certain harmonics at a certain amplitude.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

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Mega Hertz
Posts: 4265
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Brighton

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Thu May 23, 2019 6:57 am

That answered so many questions I've had over the years but didn't know how to ask.

Kind of like when I'd park under the 8 and Meyers tower at work, and stations broadcasting on that tower on other frequencies. I'd get 99.5 on 89.1, 96.3 on 88.3, etc.


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CK-722
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Thu May 23, 2019 10:53 am

You can have images, difference frequencies, and RITOIE like interactions with the oscillator and its harmonics on some radios. It's kind of like when all the stars are in alignment on those, because the oscillator frequency varies. When I've heard just one program in an intermod image, the other is the oscillator. I've even heard three stations on one frequency on really old FM radios. I figured out how some of these arose. I think some of these would be considered fourth or more order interactions. One time, I had a really perplexing image. I was hearing WOOD-FM 105.7 ALL OVER THE DIAL nearly 100 miles away in Genesee County. But I couldn't hear WOOD-FM on 105.7, because it was right next to WWCK-FM 105.5 three miles away. Figuring it out requires some History. The late great Ed Rauch, the CE at WFBE 95.1, also about three miles away, LOVED CLASSICAL MUSIC, and played long symphonies on the air. Ed Rauch also HATED AUDIO COMPRESSION, and just used a limiter in processing WFBE 95.1 audio. Some of the symphonies had long interludes of very low level audio. People would call and ask if they were on the air. WOOD-FM 105.7 was 265 kW, and there was a temperature inversion. The Super Power WOOD-FM 105.7 was mixing with WFBE 95.1 100 miles away and giving an IF image all over the dial! You couldn't hear WFBE audio because it was so low level compared to WOOD-FM 105.7, and Ed's processing had no compression to bring it up. Part of the beauty of Classical Symphonies IS the dynamic range, so I understand why he felt that way.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

CK-722
Posts: 1284
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by CK-722 » Thu May 23, 2019 5:02 pm

Incidentally, that's probably how that guy who could identify symphonies by looking at the grooves did it. The low level audio grooves take up less radial space than loud passages, so the grooves are closer together. So if he knew what was soft and loud in a symphony, he could spot where the soft and loud parts were on the grooves.


Is THAT where they got the idea for the 486-SX?

Same (x, y, z), different (t)

Your bullet missed my trial balloon.

RTN Price. Not guaranteed. As of 12:30, 157.71 Down 0.22.

Artificial Intelligence is a Child that needs a Parent to guide it through.

Mega Hertz
Posts: 4265
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Brighton

Re: 87.7/87.9 Brighton

Post by Mega Hertz » Thu May 23, 2019 5:24 pm

Damn. You're good.


"Internet is no more like radio than intravenous feeding is like fine dining."
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